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Thread: Scandinavian R1a

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    Scandinavian R1a

    I was wondering if someone could give a quick summary of the earliest roots of R1a in Scandinavia. Is it a mix or is most of stem from a single branch off. If so, how old might that branching off be? I am curious because I have in the recent past thought ANE could have entered Scandinavia in the Mesolithic with pressure microblades. Is there any sign that Scandinavian R1a or some of it could have branched off that early

    Also what is the best most up to date user friendly R1a tree that indicates geography or linguistic associations?
    Last edited by alan; 07-13-2014 at 06:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I was wondering if someone could give a quick summary of the earliest roots of R1a in Scandinavia. Is it a mix or is most of stem from a single branch off. If so, how old might that branching off be? I am curious because I have in the recent past thought ANE could have entered Scandinavia in the Mesolithic with pressure microblades. Is there any sign that Scandinavian R1a or some of it could have branched off that early

    Also what is the best most up to date user friendly R1a tree that indicates geography or linguistic associations?
    I don’t know any data that would support the presence of R1a in Scandinavia prior to 3000 BC (i.e before the R1a-Z284 people or their ancestors from the parental clade R1a-Y2395 came to Scandinavia). However, since it is commonly suspected that R1a was present in Eastern Europe at a relatively early date, it is of course possible that some early lineages of R1a(xM417) could have penetrated the Fennoscandia in the pre-Neolithic times (just like the currently extinct sublineages of I2 did).

    As for the most recently updated (and “user-friendly”) R1a tree, please visit the R1a1a and Subclades project:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/
    Since the NGS-based R1a tree grows very quickly, some more detailed schemes are also available for particular sub-branches, but I guess you are more interested in the general structure.

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    Thanks. That confirms my impression about R1a. That is interesting though as it raises the question of who was involved in bringing ANE to the Baltic and Scandinavia in the Mesolithic. I am pretty convinced that the best archaeological signal for the passing of genes from ancient Siberia into both eastern Europe and Scandinavia is the pressure microblade groups, the northern representatives of which are the post-Swiderian/Kunda type Mesolithic groups. So, if there is any trace in modern Scandinavian's y DNA of this movement it isnt R1a. What about Q?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I don’t know any data that would support the presence of R1a in Scandinavia prior to 3000 BC (i.e before the R1a-Z284 people or their ancestors from the parental clade R1a-Y2395 came to Scandinavia). However, since it is commonly suspected that R1a was present in Eastern Europe at a relatively early date, it is of course possible that some early lineages of R1a(xM417) could have penetrated the Fennoscandia in the pre-Neolithic times (just like the currently extinct sublineages of I2 did).

    As for the most recently updated (and “user-friendly”) R1a tree, please visit the R1a1a and Subclades project:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/
    Since the NGS-based R1a tree grows very quickly, some more detailed schemes are also available for particular sub-branches, but I guess you are more interested in the general structure.

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    I actually wouldnt be surprised if Q was the sort of 'close to the ice sheet' group who came in with the post-Swiderian/Kunda groups because we know that other Siberian groups crossed similarly challenging areas into the Americas. I think with a lot of palaeolithic groups they tended to move as their environment moved rather than stay put but adapt. There is a complex sequence of change of environment from c. 10000-7000BC around the time these post-Swiderian cultures arose in NE Europe. Ideally we could do with a set of environmental zone maps for Eurasia and compare them to the latest dating on the post-Swiderian type cutures. I am trying to work out if they were following or actually avoiding the forests. The western originated groups seemed to follow the retreat of the tundra as they wanted to retain their hunting and environmental preferences. I feel pretty certain that they were I groups. Did the post-Swidererian groups from the east who appeared prefer boreal forest? What was their y DNA?

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    This is an interesting paper which sort of sees the Swiderians as part of the whole west to east repopulating of Europe and relates them to a general evacuation of the old lands in SW Europe to follow Reindeer. The paper contrasts them with the epigravettian mammoth hunters of Ukraine whose cultures seem to have gone extinct with their main quarry. It also sets the post-Swiderian/Kunda cultures as relating to the preboreal and boreal taiga environments which is interesting. Three groups, three subsistence-environment models. However, be warned that the paper seeks to simply bring the post-Swiderian/Kunda groups out of the Swiderian which I think is probably due to nationalistic bias.

    http://vddb.library.lt/fedora/get/LT...002.1.01.ARTIC

    This partially free chapter in a book about pressure microblades gives a better and more modern interpretation of post-Swiderian cultures, linking them with groups towards the Urals like Butovo

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q...boreal&f=false

    The same chapter notes that pressure blade working probably spread from post-Swiderian/Kunda culture of the east Baltic to groups in Poland and into late Maglemosian south Scandinavian/north German groups c. 7000BC but did not reach the isles.

    Its interesting that the earliest burials at the Oleny Ostrov cemetery in Latvia are postswiderian people described as 'massive northern Europoids with flattened faces'. There is a chapter on this by Potekhina called 'Postswiderian of NE Europe as seen from the anthropological data' which I have never read. I am wary of the interpretation of some of these old papers as there seems to be ethno-nationalistic biases involved. However, I wouldnt entirely dismiss the entire work.

    All in all there does seem to be a case that eastern impulses crossed the Urals and north Russia after 10000BC and into the east Baltic in the pre-boreal and boreal times - ultimately influencing the late Maglemosian groups of southern Scandinavia and coastal Germany around 7000BC. I imagine if this is linked to ANE that its genetic impact decreased from east to west and was possibly very minor west of the Baltic.

    I still am not sure what yDNA was involved. We do have some evidence of R* in Siberia in the early LGM period and the strong likelihood that Q expanded with microblade groups fro a a similar area in the post-LGM and into the Americas. I think its clear enough the way the cookie is crumbling but we need a lot more datapoints. We need yDNA from the Butovo culture and the Kunda/post-Swiderian Baltic cultures. We also need data from the microblade using Mesolithic cultures of the Ukraine and adjacent - Kukrek and Grebeniki. I am pretty certain that in that little group the first R people in Europe will likely be picked up.

    Its a matter of interest that the SNP counting dating of Michal and others seems to confirm the youth of R1a while also at the same time indicating R1b is older than thought. This is something to chew over. SOME R1b clades are old enough to be considered pre-farming including M73. It is also true that some of the SNP counting dates for M269xL11 clades, although not older than farming in Europe over all, are old enough to be considered Mesolithic in some areas like the steppe and northern Europe where farming arrived very late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I actually wouldnt be surprised if Q was the sort of 'close to the ice sheet' group who came in with the post-Swiderian/Kunda groups because we know that other Siberian groups crossed similarly challenging areas into the Americas. I think with a lot of palaeolithic groups they tended to move as their environment moved rather than stay put but adapt. There is a complex sequence of change of environment from c. 10000-7000BC around the time these post-Swiderian cultures arose in NE Europe. Ideally we could do with a set of environmental zone maps for Eurasia and compare them to the latest dating on the post-Swiderian type cutures. I am trying to work out if they were following or actually avoiding the forests. The western originated groups seemed to follow the retreat of the tundra as they wanted to retain their hunting and environmental preferences. I feel pretty certain that they were I groups. Did the post-Swidererian groups from the east who appeared prefer boreal forest? What was their y DNA?
    Hi Alan, I am not sure which of the Y DNA lines may have come into Europe in the Mesolithic with the post Swiderian/Kunda groups? Was it Q, I or R? I am not sure which of these 3 you think came in from Siberia into Scandinavia/NE Europe from Siberia with the pressure microblade culture? In the highlighted sections you mention Q and I and in post #5 you mention R when you state "I still am not sure what yDNA was involved. We do have some evidence of R* in Siberia in the early LGM period and the strong likelihood that Q expanded with microblade groups fro a a similar area in the post-LGM and into the Americas. I think its clear enough the way the cookie is crumbling but we need a lot more datapoints. We need yDNA from the Butovo culture and the Kunda/post-Swiderian Baltic cultures. We also need data from the microblade using Mesolithic cultures of the Ukraine and adjacent - Kukrek and Grebeniki. I am pretty certain that in that little group the first R people in Europe will likely be picked up."

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    An analysis of Norwegian R1a is in this spreadsheet. 88% is R1a-Z284 and most Z284 falls under 5 subclades. Strangely yfull estimates their TMRCA all to be 3200 or younger.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=936402560

    The fact we have an example R1a-Z281, which has a formation date of 3900 according to yfull, in Denmark from almost 4700 years ago suggests the age estimates by yfull are too young. Z281 BTW is one of the more popular types of R1a in Norway and the guy who had it was Corded Ware or at least autosomally Corded Ware. yfull suggests a fairlly recent expansion of R1a-Z284 in Scandinavia which doesn't make sense to me. It must have expanded with Corded Ware IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    The fact we have an example R1a-Z281, which has a formation date of 3900 according to yfull, in Denmark from almost 4700 years ago suggests the age estimates by yfull are too young.
    Ancestral Journeys says of that example:
    ---
    2650-2300 BC including reduction for high marine signal
    ---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    Strangely yfull estimates their TMRCA all to be 3200 or younger.
    YFull's TMRCA estimates apply to people living today, not ancient bones. Most Y-lines go extinct--modern TMRCAs represent only those that did not. Moreover, YFull only considers full-Y BAM files (supplied by customers, or published research samples). Perhaps the number of Danes who have submitted BAM files to YFull is rather small?

    In any case, a more extreme example is that of I1 (I-M253), which has a YFull TMRCA of 4700 ybp but a "formed" date of more than 27,000 years ago!
    Last edited by lgmayka; 11-09-2015 at 03:00 AM.

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