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Thread: Kerala Y-DNA Distribution

  1. #1321
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    I agree with the modelling aspect - who knows what pulls Nambudiris away from UP Brahmins - is it more steppe and AASI admixture in the latter post-Nambudiri exodus due to Scythians? is it due to Nambudiris mixing with low-mid caste Dravidians in various proportions? (more likely)
    I'm not sure what you mean, but my point was that UP brahmins are closer to South Indian Brahmins than Gujarati, Punjabi etc etc Brahmins are.
    This is because of AASI drift lines being longer than that of intra-western eurasian ones. The only way to test individual affinities would be to look at the western eurasian shell alone.

    - Im sure some Iyers can overlap with Nambudiris due to similar ratios too - I score closest to Iyers on G25 but Tamil culture has nothing to do with our history there is 0% chance of any Tamil ancestry whether Brahmin or non-Brahmin (except the local Western Tamil type). So to say UP is definitely not a source for Nambudiris requires proof
    I did not claim that anywhere in my previous post. I said, that I (perhaps erroneously) assumed a western coastline origin for them - but perhaps it is not so.

    I'm pretty skeptical of a Gujarat origin for Nambudiris - likely it was the other way UP Brahmins went outwards to Gujarat as Gujarati Brahmins can easily be modelled as UP Brahmins enriched with local Iran N - they also score a lower steppe ratio than UP Brahmins as I have showed in the nmonte thread

    Ditto for Punjab
    Ditto for Maharashtra
    Ditto for Tamil Nadu
    The UP Brahmin samples on the g25 spreadsheet are a bit dodgy. They behave a bit weirdly and are not particularly useful in models. But I doubt Punjabi Brahmins can be modeled as steppe dilutions of UP Brahmins, anyway. I think you are confusing the hypothetical Ror-like Gangetic Brahmins for present day UP Brahmins. Higher "Steppe ratio" does not have to translate to greater net steppe(and it doesn't, in this case)


    A subset of Iyers might have come from Gujarat, but its more likely that the numerical bulk of Iyers are related to one of the earlier Brahmin migrations out of an initially bottlenecked Brahmin pop likely in the vicinity of the Ganges.
    What in particular suggests that?

    Iyers probably are the most admixed outwards from this group, perhaps due to timeline
    Most southern/AASI shifted does not mean most non-Brahmin "admixed", these are two separate things.
    For instance Namboothiris could be some A% "progenitor" brahmin + B% local Kerala group, while Tamil Brahmins could be X% "progenitor" Brahmin(assuming groups are the same on paper for the sake of this argument) + Y% local TN group.
    Now even if, Namboothiris are closer to UP brahmins on paper, it does not necessarily mean that B<Y, because the local substrate in question is obviously not the same.
    Nairs themselves, as you said are "canonically" Iyers on paper, so admixture with them would definitely not be as "deviant" as caste Tamil admixture.
    ---
    Going by harappa due to lack of samples:
    Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 6% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 3% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin 48% 35% 5% 6%
    Tamil Brahmin 47% 38% 6% 4%
    Tamil Brahmin 47% 40% 3% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin 46% 40% 3% 6%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 50% 35% 2% 8%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 38% 6% 4%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 35% 6% 6%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 4% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 2% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 2% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 6% 8%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyer 43% 35% 6% 5%
    middle caste tamils
    Tamil Nadar 62% 30% 0% 0%
    Tamil Nadar 59% 32% 3% 0%
    Tamil Nadar 55% 30% 3% 0%
    Tamil Vellalar 50% 35% 6% 1%
    Tamil Vellalar 51% 32% 5% 0%
    Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 60% 32% 5% 0%
    Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 60% 33% 0% 0%
    Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 56% 36% 0% 0%
    UP Brahmin 41% 37% 7% 11%
    UP Brahmin 40% 37% 7% 11%
    UP Brahmin 37% 38% 2% 14%
    Even if you assume a bit of that Baloch is a part of "steppic" admixture or something(which Tamil Brahmins already only have scant amounts of), they are still too Iran shifted to have acquired their admixture solely from MC groups. UP Brahmin obviously doesn't suffice either(proportions, steppe baloch)

    OTOH, Nairs:
    Kerala Nair 48% 40% 4% 0%
    Kerala Nair 47% 38% 5% 5%
    ----
    Re Iyer R1a
    27.6%

    Iyengar - 30%

    This is even lower than Nairs from what Ive seen

    L in Iyers - 20%, Iyengar 16.7%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...y_ethnic_group

    I highly doubt Nambudiris, Tulu Brahmins or Havyak Brahmins will have this y-dna distribution

    Rather they would have greater UP related R1a/R2/H IMO given how orthodox and patrilineal they are

    different sources will tell you different things, and I'd generally approach haplogroup studies/the topic of haplogroups with caution.


    Haplogroups are easily bottlenecked too, take the case of Bengali Brahmins, they have among the highest incidences of R1a1a. Doesn't exactly mean they are "proto-Brahmins".


    Re Vadama Iyers - sure that might be the case but again I don't see Iyers and Nambudiris linked to the same migration. You cant extrapolate Nambudiri history using Iyer history
    I did not claim so, and of course, that cannot be done.

    In terms of rivalry in Kerala, yes that's probably the case but it is also likely that as Nambudiris are unrelated patrilineally to Iyers, the lack of verification of Brahmin statushood might also play a part in their 'pollution' classification.
    Namboodiris practiced untouchability against Tulu Brahmins as well:
    https://www.namboothiri.com/articles/sudham.htm
    Tulu Brahmanans are known as Embraanthiris (or Embraans in short) in Kerala. If a Namboothiri happens to touch or comes in physical contact with an Embraanthiri, he gets the Embraan Sudham, which is supposed to be one step lower in rank among various types of purity of Namboothiris. Widows and boys (before Upanayanam) should avoid this Asudham. It is taboo for Brahmachaaris (boys between Upanayanam and Samaavarthanam). But it is not compulsory that an adult male Namboothiri should bathe before performing "sandhyaavandanam" if he is polluted due to "Embraan sudham".


    There is also the fact that Iyers always spoke Tamil, not the Sanskrit influenced western Tamil now called Malayalam - another reason why the groups were probably initially not known to each other
    Tamil Brahmins speak a specific dialect of Tamil, known as Brahmin Tamil, which is a Sanskritised Tamil of sorts, though distinct to Malayalam, of course.

    In Kerala, many local castes also assimilated into the community but these castes were never married into by other subsets. This doesnt mean that local admixture doesnt exist among the preexisting Nair populace, it definitely did as with Bunts and probably in significant amounts, but when communities assimilated wholesale like Tamil Padam Nairs - they stayed segregated due to endogamical rigidity
    I wouldn't be so sure of this stuff, but perhaps to an extent, maybe.
    Last edited by client; 06-19-2019 at 01:06 PM.

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  3. #1322
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    i think were on the same page here - a lot of what i was positing wasnt a strawman of your argument or in response to per se, i just wanted to clear my position

    My latest theory is that a migration from Karnataka with different ancestry to the pre-existing population of Kerala sweeped the region, and Nambudiri history to key to that, given the timelines coincide

    I'm not sure what you mean, but my point was that UP brahmins are closer to South Indian Brahmins than Gujarati, Punjabi etc etc Brahmins are.
    This is because of AASI drift lines being longer than that of intra-western eurasian ones. The only way to test individual affinities would be to look at the western eurasian shell alone.
    The west eurasian shell is actually way more complex/nuanced and should not be used as a metric- which is what ive been previously ranting on in the forum. Iyer SISBA2+3 dominance might not be fully the same source as a large part of the genome of the heavily Yamna affinity Ror (with additional Siberian) - they shouldnt be grouped together as West Eurasian because sources can be different and significantly apart by timeline. No doubt the Iyers have this pseudo Ror component, but its smaller than for all other Brahmins hence the dilution was likely local admix using Occams razor which also makes sense given their IranN levels are higher than modern UP pops

    you are right about AASI bringing UP Brahmins and Iyers closer, but the steppe to Iran N ratio is closer for Iyers and Gujarati Brahmins, and similarly closer for UP and Nepali Brahmins - they are in different segments when you look at Steppe to Iran N ratio, which was what i was getting at

    The UP Brahmin samples on the g25 spreadsheet are a bit dodgy. They behave a bit weirdly and are not particularly useful in models. But I doubt Punjabi Brahmins can be modeled as steppe dilutions of UP Brahmins, anyway. I think you are confusing the hypothetical Ror-like Gangetic Brahmins for present day UP Brahmins. Higher "Steppe ratio" does not have to translate to greater net steppe(and it doesn't, in this case)
    yep this is why remains of proto-Brahmin would be much more illuminative - but even with modern UP/Nepal/Bengal Brahmins - the pseudo-ror contribution compared to the SISBA1/2/3 contribution is higher than it is for Southern, Western or NW Brahmins.

    Punjabi Brahmins can absolutely be modelled as UP Brahmin and local Khatri (extrapolating from HAP but you can use Rahul (Potohar Brahmin) on G25) just like Sikh Jatts can be modelled as UP Jatt with Khatri. Steppe to Iran N ratio dilutions not 'steppe dilutions' which is what ive been trying to communicate

    Most southern/AASI shifted does not mean most non-Brahmin "admixed", these are two separate things.Now even if, Namboothiris are closer to UP brahmins on paper, it does not necessarily mean that B<Y, because the local substrate in question is obviously not the same.
    Nairs themselves, as you said are "canonically" Iyers on paper, so admixture with them would definitely not be as "deviant" as caste Tamil admixture.
    I extrapolated this from steppe ratio, yes Iyers have the lowest steppe proportion of their genome compared to any Brahmin on average in G25 - you can run this yourself

    I agree with your point that depending on the mix of the local substrate or AASI levels that UP Brahmins score, an individual Iyer might score closer to UP Brahmin than a Nambudiri (my hunch is not on an average level when we have a robust dataset) - but the point still stands that Nambudiri and Iyer migrations were different timelines and this is likely to play out in average differentials between the groups as they are distinct, as well as broadly different y proportions despite your point that y-dna is heavily founder effected and subject to sample bias (i agree) - i cant prove this without data (a robust y-study on Nambudiris for example), its just a hunch for me

    Re Tulu Brahmins - yes you are correct about that, but Shivalli Brahmins also have the Ahichatra/Mayuravarma invitation origin myth, unlike Iyers hence Iyers are more likely to be foreign to Nambudiris than Embranthiris were. Also the case that the first Nambudiri settlements (in North Kerala) are virtually next to Tulu lands and further from Tamil Nadu

    What in particular suggests that?
    just a hunch that the pseudo-Ror R1a heavy proto-Brahmin spread from Nepal and UP and not Gujarat for example - data is not inconsistent with this

    All Brahmins, inc Iyers are likely to have descent from this group given how important lineage and patrilineality were to Brahmins.

    Whether Brahmins like Nagar Brahmins later migrated to other regions and became a subset of Iyers is relevant to their particular subcastes too if there is oral or written history
    Last edited by bmoney; 06-20-2019 at 02:22 AM.

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  5. #1323
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    i think were on the same page here - a lot of what i was positing wasnt a strawman of your argument or in response to per se, i just wanted to clear my position

    My latest theory is that a migration from Karnataka with different ancestry to the pre-existing population of Kerala sweeped the region, and Nambudiri history to key to that, given the timelines coincide



    The west eurasian shell is actually way more complex/nuanced and should not be used as a metric- which is what ive been previously ranting on in the forum. Iyer SISBA2+3 dominance might not be fully the same source as a large part of the genome of the heavily Yamna affinity Ror (with additional Siberian) - they shouldnt be grouped together as West Eurasian because sources can be different and significantly apart by timeline. No doubt the Iyers have this pseudo Ror component, but its smaller than for all other Brahmins hence the dilution was likely local admix using Occams razor which also makes sense given their IranN levels are higher than modern UP pops

    you are right about AASI bringing UP Brahmins and Iyers closer, but the steppe to Iran N ratio is closer for Iyers and Gujarati Brahmins, and similarly closer for UP and Nepali Brahmins - they are in different segments when you look at Steppe to Iran N ratio, which was what i was getting at



    yep this is why remains of proto-Brahmin would be much more illuminative - but even with modern UP/Nepal/Bengal Brahmins - the pseudo-ror contribution compared to the SISBA1/2/3 contribution is higher than it is for Southern, Western or NW Brahmins.

    Punjabi Brahmins can absolutely be modelled as UP Brahmin and local Khatri (extrapolating from HAP but you can use Rahul (Potohar Brahmin) on G25) just like Sikh Jatts can be modelled as UP Jatt with Khatri. Steppe to Iran N ratio dilutions not 'steppe dilutions' which is what ive been trying to communicate



    I extrapolated this from steppe ratio, yes Iyers have the lowest steppe proportion of their genome compared to any Brahmin on average in G25 - you can run this yourself

    I agree with your point that depending on the mix of the local substrate or AASI levels that UP Brahmins score, an individual Iyer might score closer to UP Brahmin than a Nambudiri (my hunch is not on an average level when we have a robust dataset) - but the point still stands that Nambudiri and Iyer migrations were different timelines and this is likely to play out in average differentials between the groups as they are distinct, as well as broadly different y proportions despite your point that y-dna is heavily founder effected and subject to sample bias (i agree) - i cant prove this without data (a robust y-study on Nambudiris for example), its just a hunch for me

    Re Tulu Brahmins - yes you are correct about that, but Shivalli Brahmins also have the Ahichatra/Mayuravarma invitation origin myth, unlike Iyers hence Iyers are more likely to be foreign to Nambudiris than Embranthiris were. Also the case that the first Nambudiri settlements (in North Kerala) are virtually next to Tulu lands and further from Tamil Nadu



    just a hunch that the pseudo-Ror R1a heavy proto-Brahmin spread from Nepal and UP and not Gujarat for example - data is not inconsistent with this

    All Brahmins, inc Iyers are likely to have descent from this group given how important lineage and patrilineality were to Brahmins.

    Whether Brahmins like Nagar Brahmins later migrated to other regions and became a subset of Iyers is relevant to their particular subcastes too if there is oral or written history
    Great discussion by both of you. Curious to see where it goes...

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    @bmoney, I'll give you a proper response when I get the time, but what I am essentially saying at the moment is that the Iran-Steppe skew of Tamil Brahmins may be a result of their migration pattern and not necessarily a result of admixture acquired in TN.
    That is, they were already skewed when they arrived, as local populations do not seem to have the right sort of proportions to produce this effect.
    Of course we're not even factoring in intra-Tamil Brahmin variation while discussing this, like the clear cut distinction between subsects
    Vadama Iyer(later entrants) vs Chozhiar Iyer(earlier entrants, or even largely assimilated locals)
    Vadakalai Iyengar vs Thenkalai Iyengar(same as above)
    etc etc.

    Looking at specific individuals, I even see types that appear to AASI-diluted far NW types(chalc signal, unusually low steppe). Sort of like slightly extra AASI/IVC versions of member Sudkol.

    Will elaborate later on, reg the other things being discussed too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    @bmoney, I'll give you a proper response when I get the time, but what I am essentially saying at the moment is that the Iran-Steppe skew of Tamil Brahmins may be a result of their migration pattern and not necessarily a result of admixture acquired in TN.
    That is, they were already skewed when they arrived, as local populations do not seem to have the right sort of proportions to produce this effect.
    Of course we're not even factoring in intra-Tamil Brahmin variation while discussing this, like the clear cut distinction between subsects
    Vadama Iyer(later entrants) vs Chozhiar Iyer(earlier entrants, or even largely assimilated locals)
    Vadakalai Iyengar vs Thenkalai Iyengar(same as above)
    etc etc.

    Looking at specific individuals, I even see types that appear to AASI-diluted far NW types(chalc signal, unusually low steppe). Sort of like slightly extra AASI/IVC versions of member Sudkol.

    Will elaborate later on, reg the other things being discussed too.
    I mean gujarat brahmin and piramalai could do it. But marathas offer the closest fit with GBR and they are certainly not common in tamil nadu IIRC.

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  11. #1326
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26284729292 View Post
    I mean gujarat brahmin and piramalai could do it. But marathas offer the closest fit with GBR and they are certainly not common in tamil nadu IIRC.
    im open to that and what client is saying based on our current dataset but we have to keep in mind:

    - Most Iyers (outside Vadama?) do not have oral or written history of western or northern migration. Nambudiris on the other hand have oral and written history that they are migrants - and not from West India

    - Iyers likely married the elite of the local populace, like Sudkols high Iran N can be derived from a Kush-like Reddy pop (Kush regularly scores Baloch in his mixed mode at significant levels and is high Iran N, much more so than Piramalai)

    - Chances of the bulk of Iyers going to W/NW first for their Iran_N/AASI levels and then the South is way harder to prove (with no written or oral evidence) than the proposal that they migrated down from UP and mixed with either proto Tamil (or Telugu) high Iran N IVC elites - just because we don't have a high Iran_N Tamil caste on G25 doesn't mean they don't exist in TN or never did, when they do in AP for example (Reddy)

    - Brahmins (presumably Iyers) are mentioned in the Sangam literature

    http://kauniyansri.blogspot.com/2014...rature-17.html

    The Sangam literature (Tamil: சங்க இலக்கியம், Sanga ilakkiyam) is the ancient Tamil literature of the period in the history of south India (known as the Thamizhagam or the Tamilagam) spanning from c. 300 BCE to 300 CE

    This is fairly ancient and its hard to say Iyers received no local admixture since this period

    Maybe its the case that the Tamil high Iran N IVC elite simply merged with the Brahmins and castes like the Piramalai, who didnt, remained

    Nambudiris on the other hand were paternally extremely rigid (racist), they did not mix with Sudra Nairs or Avarna locals (unless via sambandham where the offspring were not allowed to eat with the father and still considered sudra) as established and known policy as recent as 100 years ago - any local mixture was likely to be female mediated at the founding stages

    Nambudiri results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 S-Indian 44.73
    2 Baloch 35.3
    3 Caucasian 7.85
    4 NE-Euro 7.64
    5 NE-Asian 1.97
    6 Papuan 0.81
    7 American 0.55
    8 Beringian 0.42
    9 SW-Asian 0.39
    10 E-African 0.34

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 S-Indian 44.42
    2 Baloch 37.25
    3 Caucasian 8.26
    4 NE-Euro 6.89
    5 SE-Asian 1.37
    6 Papuan 0.51
    7 American 0.4
    8 Beringian 0.28
    9 NE-Asian 0.25
    10 Siberian 0.17
    11 San 0.15
    12 SW-Asian 0.05

    Iyer & Iyengar results - definite overlap but the Nambudiri samples would be among the most NE Euro + Caucasian and least SI shifted Iyer samples but nothing dramatic suggesting similarish levels of local admix:

    SIndian Baloch Caucasian NEEuro

    Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 6% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 3% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin 48% 35% 5% 6%
    Tamil Brahmin 47% 38% 6% 4%
    Tamil Brahmin 47% 40% 3% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin 46% 40% 3% 6%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 50% 35% 2% 8%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 38% 6% 4%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 35% 6% 6%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 4% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 2% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 2% 5%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 6% 8%
    Tamil Brahmin Iyer 43% 35% 6% 5%

    UP Brahmin - The Nambudiris and NE Euro+Caucasian shifted Iyers + Iyengars are not that far off from the top 2 samples - the bottom sample almost overlaps with the high steppe ratio of Nepali Brahmins

    UP Brahmin 41% 37% 7% 11%
    UP Brahmin 40% 37% 7% 11%
    UP Brahmin 37% 38% 2% 14%
    Last edited by bmoney; 06-21-2019 at 02:55 AM.

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  13. #1327
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    Interesting - most Iyers score exactly like this UP Kayastha sample with roughly 1-2% extra NE Euro

    SIndian Baloch Caucasian NEEuro
    UP Kayastha 47% 38% 5% 3%

    Telugu Brahmin similar to the bulk of Iyers with 1% extra SI - AP Brahmin (Xing, N = 25) 49% 36% 3% 6%
    Last edited by bmoney; 06-21-2019 at 03:10 AM.

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    I shall look more into origin hypotheses for Tamil Brahmins, but for the time being I am somewhat confident that the UP origin theory may not hold for most of us.
    I too was originally convinced of a direct gangetic origin for us, but I recall member 26284729292 posting something that made me reconsider that notion(Gujarati-Maratha model + extra info). If he could reiterate what he had said and share extra info that would be useful. Member Pegasus had shared his thoughts too iirc.

    a few, quick runs, with the underlying assumption that SIS3-type castes did exist in abundance:
     
    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 2.3153,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh": 72.5,
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 27.5,

    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 1.5834,
    "Brahmin_Gujarat": 62.5,
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 37.5,

    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 1.8795,
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 63.33,
    "Ror": 36.67


    Reg Velama etc, they seem to have some Indo-Aryan input as well, as in, non-negligible steppe admixture that cannot be neglected. Entirely possible that their SiS3-ness is somehow a result of IA admixture reducing the AASI levels to the correct proportions.

    To my knowledge, Member Kush does not have sufficient Iran_N or the BMAC-ness that would be required to arrive at Sudkol's proportions. Sudkol is a Telugu Brahmin, anyway, and is among the most northern shifted SI brahmin samples(more northern than Varun iirc). He seems like a Kashmiri Pandit + local Dravidian type of thing.

    Furthermore, the extent to which one has deviated from the Brahmin form, both wrt "original" Brahmins and local "progenitor" Brahmins is something that cannot easily be arrived at empirically.
    Take the case of Kashmiri Pandits who are largely iterations of SGPT types
    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Karkuns who form the main population of Kashmiri Pandits are autochthonous they cluster towards Swat/SPGT populations. The closest Gangetic influence would be via Purbis from Himachal and they arrive in the medieval period. As to when the area was Brahmanized is speculative as the area by the mid Iron Age was a strong center of Buddhist and Sanskrit learning, Charsada and Taxila to the west even more so.

    "sample": "Kashmiri_Pandit:Average",
    "fit": 1.46,
    "PAK_Swat_Udegram_IA": 85,
    "RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA": 7.5,
    "Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX": 5,
    "NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP": 2.5,
    "closestDistances": [
    Is this to say that they are largely local Dards who were assimilated into Brahminism(presumably by some gangetic wave), with the retention of their Dardic(non-Indic) tongue? I would think so. Even on Harappa, the Kashmiri Pandit samples vary a lot, there are some samples with very little NE euro(2-3%) too, which is strange for any brahmin. Might be an artifact of the calculator (confusion between NE euro and Caucasus) though.
    Same, with all other Brahmins, we cannot be certain of the extent to which they are deviated, especially in the North/NW because of the existence of on-paper similar populations.

    Another question on a similar note: Given the nature of the Keralan populace, How can one say verily that Nambudiris in their current state aren't something like 80% Nair + 20%"Progenitor Brahmin" (random proportions), as Nairs are already very northern shifted? This coupled with what you said earlier, Nambudiri proportions being inadequate to provide all of the IA admixture in Nairs.


    Side note, Member parasar had mentioned the R1a lines among Tamil Brahmins being Z2123/2124, and not the mainstream Indic L657, maybe this would give us some clues. Would be great if he could elaborate.
    I see some of these lines among Sri Lankans too, perhaps Ceylon Brahmins? Who knows.

    --
    I posted from mobile, I hadn't seen that you had updated your post, I will discuss that bit later.
    Last edited by client; 06-21-2019 at 03:47 AM.

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  17. #1329
    Registered Users
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    Brahmin (mixed)
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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    I shall look more into origin hypotheses for Tamil Brahmins, but for the time being I am somewhat confident that the UP origin theory may not hold for most of us.
    I too was originally convinced of a direct gangetic origin for us, but I recall member 26284729292 posting something that made me reconsider that notion(Gujarati-Maratha model + extra info). If he could reiterate what he had said and share extra info that would be useful. Member Pegasus had shared his thoughts too iirc.

    a few, quick runs, with the underlying assumption that SIS3-type castes did exist in abundance:
     
    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 2.3153,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh": 72.5,
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 27.5,

    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 1.5834,
    "Brahmin_Gujarat": 62.5,
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 37.5,

    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 1.8795,
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 63.33,
    "Ror": 36.67


    Reg Velama etc, they seem to have some Indo-Aryan input as well, as in, non-negligible steppe admixture that cannot be neglected. Entirely possible that their SiS3-ness is somehow a result of IA admixture reducing the AASI levels to the correct proportions.

    To my knowledge, Member Kush does not have sufficient Iran_N or the BMAC-ness that would be required to arrive at Sudkol's proportions. Sudkol is a Telugu Brahmin, anyway, and is among the most northern shifted SI brahmin samples(more northern than Varun iirc). He seems like a Kashmiri Pandit + local Dravidian type of thing.

    Furthermore, the extent to which one has deviated from the Brahmin form, both wrt "original" Brahmins and local "progenitor" Brahmins is something that cannot easily be arrived at empirically.
    Take the case of Kashmiri Pandits who are largely iterations of SGPT types


    Is this to say that they are largely local Dards who were assimilated into Brahminism(presumably by some gangetic wave), with the retention of their Dardic(non-Indic) tongue? I would think so. Even on Harappa, the Kashmiri Pandit samples vary a lot, there are some samples with very little NE euro(2-3%) too, which is strange for any brahmin. Might be an artifact of the calculator (confusion between NE euro and Caucasus) though.
    Same, with all other Brahmins, we cannot be certain of the extent to which they are deviated, especially in the North/NW because of the existence of on-paper similar populations.

    Another question on a similar note: Given the nature of the Keralan populace, How can one say verily that Nambudiris in their current state aren't something like 80% Nair + 20%"Progenitor Brahmin" (random proportions), as Nairs are already very northern shifted? This coupled with what you said earlier, Nambudiri proportions being inadequate to provide all of the IA admixture in Nairs.


    Side note, Member parasar had mentioned the R1a lines among Tamil Brahmins being Z2123/2124, and not the mainstream Indic L657, maybe this would give us some clues. Would be great if he could elaborate.
    I see some of these lines among Sri Lankans too, perhaps Ceylon Brahmins? Who knows.

    --
    I posted from mobile, I hadn't seen that you had updated your post, I will discuss that bit later.
    Yeah I posted the fit with Marathas +GBR. The gist of it was that similarities in marathi brahmins/their samples which I've seen and overlap between marathi brahmins and nagar brahmins in terms of region (which I corroborated with some town/city names and history) basically alluded to the possibility that GBR (nagar brahmins) were marathi/SI brahmin progenitors in that they may have mixed with marathas moving down the west coast of india, for a presumably political alliance, or something of that sort. The closest fit I've seen for Iyers/south indian brahmins with moderns are GBR+maratha. I won't use my harappa/nmonte as an example because my family has weird admix throughout, but I've seen iyengar/karanataka brahmin/chitpavan/deshastha brahmin samples that all score fairly similarly so to assume that most SI brahmins have a common-ish point of origin certainly isn't out of the question. I will be curious to see my V3 nmonte, as the preliminary fit (as I wrote in the other thread) is already more yamna/barcin/han shifted (about 4% more) than my V5 kit.

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  19. #1330
    Registered Users
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    841
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26284729292 View Post
    Yeah I posted the fit with Marathas +GBR. The gist of it was that similarities in marathi brahmins/their samples which I've seen and overlap between marathi brahmins and nagar brahmins in terms of region (which I corroborated with some town/city names and history) basically alluded to the possibility that GBR (nagar brahmins) were marathi/SI brahmin progenitors in that they may have mixed with marathas moving down the west coast of india, for a presumably political alliance, or something of that sort. The closest fit I've seen for Iyers/south indian brahmins with moderns are GBR+maratha. I won't use my harappa/nmonte as an example because my family has weird admix throughout, but I've seen iyengar/karanataka brahmin/chitpavan/deshastha brahmin samples that all score fairly similarly so to assume that most SI brahmins have a common-ish point of origin certainly isn't out of the question. I will be curious to see my V3 nmonte, as the preliminary fit (as I wrote in the other thread) is already more yamna/barcin/han shifted (about 4% more) than my V5 kit.

    Re: bmoney's point, I have a few gedmatch relatives (both marathi brahmin surnames and iyer surnames) with extremely heavy SNP overlap with me that have `40% south indian, 38% baloch 8% NE Euro and 8% Caucasian, which are close to GBR proportions, similar to varun.

    I think due to SNP's and questionable levels of full endogamy/inter sect differences that may or may not be present in iyer/iyengar subgroupings, there is some natural variation that goes beyond some of the harappa samples that we've been quoting.

    TLDR the nambudiri and iyer samples seem to be different, but I have iyer relatives on gedmatch with similar scores to the nambudiri samples, meaning I doubt there's an extremely large difference in ethnogenesis. Now if we could get some more south indian brahmin samples on nmonte...

    I have a chitpavan friend I want to get DNA tested.

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