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Thread: K's and Ashkenazim

  1. #61
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    very intresting
    it may confirm the middle eastern origin of k1a1b1a

    http://www.ijsciences.com/pub/pdf/V52016121167.pdf

    p.s
    now i see it also appear in this page
    famous historic dna
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...istoric_people
    if it is indid true it is amazing ...
    Last edited by kingjohn; 05-27-2017 at 04:54 PM.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    very intresting
    it may confirm the middle eastern origin of k1a1b1a

    http://www.ijsciences.com/pub/pdf/V52016121167.pdf
    To be fair, there is an alternate, older (6th-century) tradition that St. Mary Magdalen died at Ephesus (and never went to Gaul at all).
    ---
    The Greek Church maintains that the saint retired to Ephesus with the Blessed Virgin and there died, that her relics were transferred to Constantinople in 886 and are there preserved. Gregory of Tours (De miraculis, I, xxx) supports the statement that she went to Ephesus.
    ---

    However, it is quite possible that one of the several women named Mary in the New Testament went to Gaul, and that her relics are preserved there.

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  5. #63
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    ok i am not expert in this relgious matter
    i am jewish
    i think it is still huge find
    if in roman gaul there was a jewish community k1a1b1a could be present among them...
    that is nice...

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    K1a9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    I'm not sure about K1a9 but K1a1b1a and K2a2 clearly nest among European lineages.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...html#subclades
    You arenít accounting for the fact that K1a1b1 and K2a originated in the Near East pre-Neolithic migration, so some clades spread to Europe, some spread to Middle East, it doesnít make them the result of European admixture. Behar outlines this.

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    K1a9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Typical Ashkenazi clade. Possibly ultimately European in origin.
    Although K2a2a and K1a1b1a are still disputed, most agree that K1a9 is Judean in origin.

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  11. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    Although K2a2a and K1a1b1a are still disputed, most agree that K1a9 is Judean in origin.
    While I'd love for both K1a1b1a and K2a2a to be of Judean origin - as I'm myself am a K1a1b1a carrier and my dad is K2a2a - it's most likely isn't.

    It's true that there is the interesting case of Pashtun K1a1b1a and few Indian Jews also carrying that mtdna subclade - but they are an anomaly - an island of peculiarity that might have arrived there via the silk road from some Ashkenazi Jews.

    But hey, if there'd be enough evidence to support a Near Eastern origin - I'm all ears.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    While I'd love for both K1a1b1a and K2a2a to be of Judean origin - as I'm myself am a K1a1b1a carrier and my dad is K2a2a - it's most likely isn't.

    It's true that there is the interesting case of Pashtun K1a1b1a and few Indian Jews also carrying that mtdna subclade - but they are an anomaly - an island of peculiarity that might have arrived there via the silk road from some Ashkenazi Jews.

    But hey, if there'd be enough evidence to support a Near Eastern origin - I'm all ears.
    The K1a1b1a in Indian Jews is actually probably due to Sephardi admixture, but the Iraqi Jews and the Pashtuns is not. The Khattak tribe of Pashtuns has K1a1b1a of 5% and this is a tribe of a few million people. I don't know how many Ashkenazis were on the Silk Road, but considering that K1a1b1a is found in non-Ashkenazi Jewish groups and the only non-Jewish group I've seen that has it is a Middle Eastern group, I would say that this is more evidence than I ever thought would be found. K1a1b1 formed pre-Neolithic, quite possibly in the Near East, with the other European subclades of K1a1b1 forming only during or after the Neolithic. This certainly means that K1a1b1a could be Near Eastern, and coupled with the other MENA groups having K1a1b1a, I would say that it probably is Near Eastern. In fact, I have yet to see compelling evidence for the counterargument, that K1a1b1a is European.

  14. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    The K1a1b1a in Indian Jews is actually probably due to Sephardi admixture, but the Iraqi Jews and the Pashtuns is not. The Khattak tribe of Pashtuns has K1a1b1a of 5% and this is a tribe of a few million people. I don't know how many Ashkenazis were on the Silk Road, but considering that K1a1b1a is found in non-Ashkenazi Jewish groups and the only non-Jewish group I've seen that has it is a Middle Eastern group, I would say that this is more evidence than I ever thought would be found. K1a1b1 formed pre-Neolithic, quite possibly in the Near East, with the other European subclades of K1a1b1 forming only during or after the Neolithic. This certainly means that K1a1b1a could be Near Eastern, and coupled with the other MENA groups having K1a1b1a, I would say that it probably is Near Eastern. In fact, I have yet to see compelling evidence for the counterargument, that K1a1b1a is European.
    I do believe the Iraqi K1a1b1a came from Syrian Jews as I have told you on the other thread. And Syrian Jews got that from Ashkenazim (as I hope you are aware - non-Musta'arabi Syrian Jews are a mixture of Sephardim, Ashkenazim and Musta'arabic Syrian Jews - the reason why "Ashkenazi" is such a common Syrian Jewish surname is exactly because of this).

    The Pashtun K1a1b1a is a very interesting case and thus far the only non-Jewish, non-West European case I know of. Other than that, K1a1b1a has been found in ancient Northeastern Iberian samples of course and IMO it has entered Ashkenazi materilineal lineage in South France.

    Alas, Behar et al. might be right - for instance in the latest North Syria, Anatolia and Caucasus paper there are a lot of K1a's without further down streaming subclades assigned to it - I've already raised the issue on several occasions that those mtdna subclades need to be further examined - perhaps we'll find K1a1b1a over there, which will raise the probability of it being acquired in the Near East or at least Asia Minor.
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    K1a9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I do believe the Iraqi K1a1b1a came from Syrian Jews as I have told you on the other thread. And Syrian Jews got that from Ashkenazim (as I hope you are aware - non-Musta'arabi Syrian Jews are a mixture of Sephardim, Ashkenazim and Musta'arabic Syrian Jews - the reason why "Ashkenazi" is such a common Syrian Jewish surname is exactly because of this).

    The Pashtun K1a1b1a is a very interesting case and thus far the only non-Jewish, non-West European case I know of. Other than that, K1a1b1a has been found in ancient Northeastern Iberian samples of course and IMO it has entered Ashkenazi materilineal lineage in South France.

    Alas, Behar et al. might be right - for instance in the latest North Syria, Anatolia and Caucasus paper there are a lot of K1a's without further down streaming subclades assigned to it - I've already raised the issue on several occasions that those mtdna subclades need to be further examined - perhaps we'll find K1a1b1a over there, which will raise the probability of it being acquired in the Near East or at least Asia Minor.
    What is the source for ancient Iberian K1a1b1a, I would be interested in reading it. It is theoretically possible that any Ashkenazi-Mizrahi shared haplogroup is the result of gene flow but I believe that it is much more likely indicative of ancient shared ancestry, considering that gene flow from Syrian Sephardim in the last few hundred years to Iraqi Mizrahim has been relatively low (at least so I've heard). You are right of course about the general K1a's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    What is the source for ancient Iberian K1a1b1a, I would be interested in reading it. It is theoretically possible that any Ashkenazi-Mizrahi shared haplogroup is the result of gene flow but I believe that it is much more likely indicative of ancient shared ancestry, considering that gene flow from Syrian Sephardim in the last few hundred years to Iraqi Mizrahim has been relatively low (at least so I've heard). You are right of course about the general K1a's.
    It depends. You have to look at the phylogenetic/dating evidence. It's not as well-characterized for mtDNA, but for Y-DNA, as I've explained, there are several clear cases of gene flow (one of which, which has gained traction on this forum, and which StillWater can tell you all about, is the partial Mizrahi ancestry of the early pre-Ashkenazic Jewish population of Eastern Europe). Clear proof of classical-era divergence, or earlier, is rare so far. Can't just be assumed.
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