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Thread: Caucasus Origins of Y-DNA T?

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    Caucasus Origins of Y-DNA T?

    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    T because the bigest concentrations are ...assyria.....zargos mountains....dagestan ( a triangle incorporating, Armenians, azeri, lezkins and others, mainly east side of caspian sea.)
    We must be looking at different frequency maps then, because I do not agree on that triangle. Excluding the Alawites and Druze, the triangle that you describe better defines the concentration of R1b in the ME. Not Y-DNA T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    We must be looking at different frequency maps then, because I do not agree on that triangle. Excluding the Alawites and Druze, the triangle that you describe better defines the concentration of R1b in the ME. Not Y-DNA T.
    The only basal area for T is basra, syria and bavaria.........that the only place. exclude Bavaria because its europe.
    99% of T is T1, we have ....assyrians 15%, Azeri 11%, Lezkins 8%, dagestan 7%, ......kurds I cannot remamber, Armenians 8% ............we can claim 38% altai republic/kazaks in central asia if you like....or 8% in tyrol, but these are fringe areas.......the T1 marker is concentrated in the south caucasus area.
    zero in Turkmenistan and the BMAC area, Uzbekistan unsure.

    the fictious 15 % of Druze has been squashed and the Alawites..........unsure.................again concentration is south caucasus

    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d1-P109
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R1b-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    the fictious 15 % of Druze has been squashed and the Alawites..........unsure.................again concentration is south caucasus
    Who is talking about Y-DNA T in Druze and Alawites? I stated that your "triangle," when excluding Alawites and Druze best fits the concentration of R1b in the ME, not Y-DNA T.

    In the ME, Y-DNA T is concentrated in minority groups in what is today Iraq, in the Armenians of Sasun, and SW Iranians. Basically, the Tigris River. Not the Caucasus.

    The "X" marks the spot of the Armenians of Sasun.

    Assyrians, Iraqi Jews, Iranian Jews, Kurdish Jews, and Bakhtiari Iranians.

    Last edited by Humanist; 07-23-2014 at 11:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    G and J has always been known for many years that its caucasian (georgia, armenia, ossetian etc) from many sites and T because the bigest concentrations are ...assyria.....zargos mountains....dagestan ( a triangle incorporating, Armenians, azeri, lezkins and others, mainly east side of caspian sea.)
    Correction, G and J may peak in the Caucasus. That doesn't insinuate they expanded or originated from the Caucasus. Caucasians are a highly genetically drifted population, the modality of these uniparental markers probably reflects high degrees of endogamy induced inbreeding. T probably originated in Mesopotamia, and I wouldn't be surprised if G and J also had a similar origin in or near Mesopotamia or the Near East. After all, Caucasians can be modeled as being 80% Near Eastern + 20% ANE, which to me serves as independent confirmation of their Near Eastern origin.
    Last edited by ZephyrousMandaru; 07-23-2014 at 08:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru View Post
    Correction, G and J may peak in the Caucasus. That doesn't insinuate they expanded or originated from the Caucasus. Caucasians are a highly genetically drifted population, the modality of these uniparental markers probably reflects high degrees of endogamy induced inbreeding. T probably originated in Mesopotamia, and I wouldn't be surprised if G and J also had a similar origin in or near Mesopotamia or the Near East. After all, Caucasians can be modeled as being 80% Near Eastern + 20% ANE, which to me serves as independent confirmation of their Near Eastern origin.
    lets take a logical approach....as per this latest years of Haplotype oriign



    we know these things

    K formed in and around modern kuwait ( as per studies) along with GHIJ , within 2000 years, T and L formed.

    -we know K kept heading to SE-Asia ( karafet paper) , but the above haplotypes did not go to SE-Asia.

    -from creation of K to creation of P is about 6000 years. P was created in SE-Asia ( Karafet paper)

    -From P to creation of R is over 25000 years

    So, KGHIJTL all formed between mesopotamia and Gedrosia ( a small area for 7 haplotype ), all formed inside 6000 years.
    Are we all saying that these haplotypes in this very short space of human time did not stay together?, did, not head north, when south lay the sea?, did not travel together?

    I know of no ancient system where the ancients had the ability to prevent 7 different haplotype in roughly the size of iran from travelling together because they where different haplotypes..........people make me laugh when they think haplotypes traveled alone.

    The madagscar paper states that J1 and T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains, the other groups I mentioned are all nearby.

    Q and R are a very different proposition forming over 25000 years after these 7 mentioned types.
    Last edited by vettor; 07-23-2014 at 09:53 AM.

    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d1-P109
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R1b-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    lets take a logical approach....as per this latest years of Haplotype oriign

    The madagscar paper states that J1 and T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains, the other groups I mentioned are all nearby.
    And that is the basis for your opinion? The Madagascar paper? Not that that paper should be referred to as authoritative on the question, but will you please refer me to where in the paper they state that "T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains."

    Are you familiar with the Zagros Mountains? If they do indeed refer to the Zagros Mountain range in the Madagascar paper, compare the Zagros Mountain range to the location and span of the Tigris. Certainly, it is no "Caucasus."


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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    lets take a logical approach....as per this latest years of Haplotype oriign



    we know these things

    K formed in and around modern kuwait ( as per studies) along with GHIJ , within 2000 years, T and L formed.

    -we know K kept heading to SE-Asia ( karafet paper) , but the above haplotypes did not go to SE-Asia.

    -from creation of K to creation of P is about 6000 years. P was created in SE-Asia ( Karafet paper)

    -From P to creation of R is over 25000 years

    So, KGHIJTL all formed between mesopotamia and Gedrosia ( a small area for 7 haplotype ), all formed inside 6000 years.
    Are we all saying that these haplotypes in this very short space of human time did not stay together?, did, not head north, when south lay the sea?, did not travel together?

    I know of no ancient system where the ancients had the ability to prevent 7 different haplotype in roughly the size of iran from travelling together because they where different haplotypes..........people make me laugh when they think haplotypes traveled alone.

    The madagscar paper states that J1 and T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains, the other groups I mentioned are all nearby.

    Q and R are a very different proposition forming over 25000 years after these 7 mentioned types.
    There are two confirmed F lines. There may be others.
    Vietnam harbors both these confirmed lines - F(GHIJK) and F(xGHIJK).
    So logically that F bottleneck could have happened in SE Asia followed by a rapid expansion into South Asia with M526 deriving from one of the M9 lines left behind.

    This also makes sense from archaeological point of view, as there are no humans in West Asia in the bottleneck period (F 75100 to 49100) and a complete annihilation of S Asians by YTT W of Toba (abt 77000ybp). East of Toba there may have had a few survivors of the bottleneck, perhaps in the Malaysia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam region (cf Cave of Monkeys).


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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    There are two confirmed F lines. There may be others.
    Vietnam harbors both these confirmed lines - F(GHIJK) and F(xGHIJK).
    So logically that F bottleneck could have happened in SE Asia followed by a rapid expansion into South Asia with M526 deriving from one of the M9 lines left behind.

    This also makes sense from archaeological point of view, as there are no humans in West Asia in the bottleneck period (F 75100 to 49100) and a complete annihilation of S Asians by YTT W of Toba (abt 77000ybp). East of Toba there may have had a few survivors of the bottleneck, perhaps in the Malaysia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam region (cf Cave of Monkeys).


    how can K form in SE-Asia when its stated it formed in SW-Asia ?
    Are we saying K went from Se-asia to Sw-asia , sitting in this wide arch popping out other haplotype?
    Logical theory is it went from SW-asia where its origins are stated and as I described in other post

    one needs to ask, did our ancient people hug the indian sea coast because north of them was the Neanderthals ( see map)..........was there confrontations . Clearly when the humans moved north they must have met these Neanderthals

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d1-P109
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R1b-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    And that is the basis for your opinion? The Madagascar paper? Not that that paper should be referred to as authoritative on the question, but will you please refer me to where in the paper they state that "T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains."

    Are you familiar with the Zagros Mountains? If they do indeed refer to the Zagros Mountain range in the Madagascar paper, compare the Zagros Mountain range to the location and span of the Tigris. Certainly, it is no "Caucasus."


    The paper states that J1 and T1 moved south into arabia not that long ago...........there is 60000 years between T and L origin to the "not that long ago", clearly where they are found indicates,..... as stated for T - as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 ybp).
    with this statement ...........50000 years past of the west-Asia T marker to move around...if not southerly into north aftrica, east africa and arabia, then clearly where do you think it went!
    Last edited by vettor; 07-23-2014 at 07:12 PM.

    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d1-P109
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R1b-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    The paper states that J1 and T1 moved south into arabia not that long ago...........there is 60000 years between T and L origin to the "not that long ago", clearly where they are found indicates,..... as stated for T - as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 ybp).
    with this statement ...........50000 years past of the west-Asia T marker to move around...if not southerly into north aftrica, east africa and arabia, then clearly where do you think it went!
    I have little idea what you are talking about now.

    Where in the Madagascar paper does it say that "T1 formed in and around the Zargos mountains."

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