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Thread: Caucasus Origins of Y-DNA T?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Yes. You are wrong. The abstract of the paper you cite is below. Before referring to a paper, you would be best served to understand what it is suggesting.
    all of these
    we assess Y-chromosomal diversity in four geographically distinct populations that represent the extent of historical Armenia. We find a striking prominence of haplogroups previously implicated with the Agricultural Revolution in the Near East, including the J2a-M410-, R1b1b1*-L23-, G2a-P15- and J1-M267-derived lineages. Given that the Last Glacial Maximum event in the Armenian plateau occured a few millennia before the Neolithic era, we envision a scenario in which its repopulation was achieved mainly by the arrival of farmers from the Fertile Crescent

    so, G2a-P15 is not Caucasus either ............is this what it means

    is the battaglia paper wrong as well?


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  2. #22
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    Vettor, you're grossly misinterpreting the what authors are the paper are stating, which is that the Armenian plateau and Caucasus were populated by agriculturalists from the Fertile Crescent. In other words, the Caucasus was a refugium for agriculturalists not a source of where they originated. Which would explain the presence of those Y-DNA lineages in Caucasians, again T did not expand from the Caucasus and neither did any of those lineages. There's no evidence for this, and contrarily, there is evidence against it both archaeological and genetic in nature.

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  4. #23
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    Are you on the theory that T origins where the Sumerians and Elamites and that the Sumerians migrated NW to form the assyrians ( or where a part of the people who created assyrians ) ?


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  5. #24
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    I'm not exactly sure where T originated, but given all the evidence I do believe it's most plausible origin is in the Fertile Crescent near Mesopotamia. Incidentally, Lezgins (a North Caucasian ethnic group) can be modeled as 80% EEF and 20% ANE. If that isn't enough, ENF is a Basal Eurasian shifted component that most likely arose in the Fertile Crescent, what would ultimately confirm this is using an ancient genome from PPNB.

    Which I imagine is very rich in ENF and therefore Basal Eurasian ancestry as well. Lezgins are over 50% ENF, that alone supports the conclusions of the paper which you cited. Which is that Caucasians are ultimately descended from Fertile Crescent dwellers.

    Code:
    Lezgin_GSM536850
    ANE 26.74%
    ASE 3.88%
    WHG-UHG 14.65%
    East_Eurasian 0%
    West_African 0.01%
    East_African 0%
    ENF 54.72%

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Based on the data in Balanovsky et al. (2011), Y-DNA T is not at all a significant lineage in the Caucasus
    One also might point out the fact that six of the eleven cases of Y-DNA haplogroup T that they have found among people in the vicinity of the Caucasus have been found in speakers of Turkic (2/69 Karachays + 1/73 Kumyks + 1/87 Kuban Nogays + 0/76 Kara Nogays + 0/135 Balkars = 4/440 = 0.9% Caucasian Turkic total) or Indo-European (2/57 Armenians + 0/10 Mountain Jews + 0/21 South Ossetians + 0/132 North Ossetians = 2/220 = 0.9% Caucasian Indo-European total) languages. Of course, the Avar-Andi language speakers in this study have a slightly higher frequency of T (2/42 Avars + 1/49 Andis + 0/27 Chamalals + 0/28 Bagvalals = 3/146 = 2.1% Avar-Andi total) as a group, but the sample size is relatively small, and the Avars at least are suspected to have been affected by some foreign influences. The speakers of other Caucasian language groups have no (Dargin, Nakh, Lezgic, Kartvelian) or very little T (1/162 Abkhazians + 0/88 Abazins = 1/250 = 0.4% Abazgi total; 1/140 Kabardin + 0/126 Cherkessians + 0/154 Adyghe = 1/420 = 0.2% Circassian total) in this study. Abazgi and Circassian are usually classified as branches of a Northwest Caucasian language family, but the separation between the Abazgi and Circassian branches is certainly very ancient.

    However, I do wonder what the K* found in 1/21 South Ossetians and 2/126 Cherkessians might be. These might be some sort of T(xM70) depending on how the authors have defined their haplogroups.

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  9. #26
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    Maybe some believe what came out as an assumption from karafet paper of 2014

    The New Y-DNA Haplogroup K1.

    The Y-DNA haplogroups known as L (mostly South Asian and especially the Indus River Valley) and T (geographically broad early Neolithic and/or Epipaleolithic expansion from around Mesopotamia into Europe and parts of Africa and since diluted in many places), have been included in a newly designated Y-DNA K1 haplogroup.

    It would appear that K1, which stayed in West Eurasia (probably in Iran or South Asia) before it split from K2, which continued on to SE Asia around 70 kya, if not earlier.

    K1 could also have backmigrated from Southeast Asia around the same time as Y-DNA haplogroups Q and R, but that seems much less likely as there are few traces of Y-DNA haplogroup L or T in Southeast Asia that can't be much more easily explained by later migrations.


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    with Genetic atlas stating recently ( this year) that LT-L298 originates from the Sind Valley , I can accept that T origins must have moved west from sind valley, so , is it the Sumerians and Elamites that some suspect from mesopotamia ...or...the south caucasus that I suspect.
    I believe T where never originally farmers , more likely hunters or herders.

    If mesopotamia is its origin , then they would be farmers as Sumerians sustained existence from farming and with this , they would be in a huge percentage...( which they are not)


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  11. #28
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    Reading about the Zaza people of Sason and lake Van in anatolia, it seems the very high 20.1% for T-M184 ( by what I have read )for these people came via the Dailamites of an area in Northern Iran ( between the Alborz mountains and Chalus ). These dailamities are said to be the modern version of the Dimilii tribe which is associated with either the Medes or Parthians.
    Anyone, have any info on these "kurdish" medes/parthians and their migration from South coast casoian sea to eastern Anatolia?


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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Reading about the Zaza people of Sason and lake Van in anatolia, it seems the very high 20.1% for T-M184...
    It would help if you would provide references for the data that you cite.

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  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Reading about the Zaza people of Sason and lake Van in anatolia, it seems the very high 20.1% for T-M184 ( by what I have read )for these people came via the Dailamites of an area in Northern Iran ( between the Alborz mountains and Chalus ). These dailamities are said to be the modern version of the Dimilii tribe which is associated with either the Medes or Parthians.
    Anyone, have any info on these "kurdish" medes/parthians and their migration from South coast casoian sea to eastern Anatolia?
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011192a.html

    which leads to the zaza people living in sasun , which leads to migration of Zaza people from IIRC Gilum lands " Dailamites" which are said to be ancient medes of the Dimilii tribe


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