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Thread: P312 and the Ancient Celts

  1. #1
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    Smile P312 and the Ancient Celts

    I believe there is a pretty obvious connection between R1b-P312 of various clades and the ancient Celts. That is not to say that all the males who ever spoke a Celtic language or who participated in the Celtic cultural milieu were P312+ or that all men who were P312+ were Celts. Obviously, there were exceptions, there was overlap at the borders, and there were Celtic men who belonged to y haplogroups other than P312. Just the same, it seems self evident to me that the Celts were predominantly P312+.

    Here are a few maps that make that point pretty plain.

    Celts Map.gif

    Haplogroup-R1b-L21 update 16 June 2013.gif

    Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif

    Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

    Please note that differences in frequency shading of the various maps above.

    It seems to me that no single subclade of P312 can account for the entirety of the Celts, but the distribution of P312 as a whole has a pretty remarkable correspondence to that of the ancient Celts.
     


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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I believe there is a pretty obvious connection between R1b-P312 of various clades and the ancient Celts. That is not to say that all the males who ever spoke a Celtic language or who participated in the Celtic cultural milieu were P312+ or that all men who were P312+ were Celts. Obviously, there were exceptions, there was overlap at the borders, and there were Celtic men who belonged to y haplogroups other than P312. Just the same, it seems self evident to me that the Celts were predominantly P312+.

    Here are a few maps that make that point pretty plain.

    Celts Map.gif

    Haplogroup-R1b-L21 update 16 June 2013.gif

    Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif

    Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

    Please note that differences in frequency shading of the various maps above.

    It seems to me that no single subclade of P312 can account for the entirety of the Celts, but the distribution of P312 as a whole has a pretty remarkable correspondence to that of the ancient Celts.
    I'm not really going out on a limb here, but I'll throw caution to the wind and go one step further...the correlation between L21, either continental or Isles, and Celtic is an almost certainty. With other subclades of P312, it may be that only certain branches (e.g. U152+L2+Z49+ and U152+L2+Z367+) were overwhelmingly "Gaulish" by the time the Romans started writing about them. After that, it gets kind of hazy (e.g. DF19 = Belgae?, Belgae = hybrid Celto-Germanic?).
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    I'd go more for "Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic" if such a thing exists. I think at that level you probably looking at various dialects of western "Proto-Indo-European" that would eventually give rise to a number of IE families such as Italic and Celtic.

    People have argued about a proposed "Italo-Celtic" stage, I think the jury still out on that, but you could argue for linguistic boundary been formed due to geographic spilt. With certain features arising in geographically dispered dialects and then spreading to neighbouring ones.

    Eventually you would have had a dialect chain going from say "Early Proto-Celtic" to "Early Proto-Italic" with intermediate forms in between, for example some have said Ligurian could be such a form (I don't know myself so I'm not gonna give an opinion)

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    I think it's easier to associate Y-DNA with certain elements of archaeological-horizon type evidence than with language. Children typically learn language more from their mothers than fathers, and some of what you see reflected (a few thousand years after the fact) on Maciamo's maps of haplogroup distribution probably sprang from largely male groups on the move. It's kind of interesting that pictures of these phenomena look kind of alike, but there are probably other phenomena that would share that, w/o touching off anybody's Celtic warrior gene or whatever.

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    Razyn,
    if you're dealing with basic words, like body parts, words dealing with "home and hearth", like family I'll agree that they will be passed down with little change for hundred of years and thousands of miles.

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    Last edited by dp; 07-28-2014 at 05:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I'm not really going out on a limb here, but I'll throw caution to the wind and go one step further...the correlation between L21, either continental or Isles, and Celtic is an almost certainty. With other subclades of P312, it may be that only certain branches (e.g. U152+L2+Z49+ and U152+L2+Z367+) were overwhelmingly "Gaulish" by the time the Romans started writing about them. After that, it gets kind of hazy (e.g. DF19 = Belgae?, Belgae = hybrid Celto-Germanic?).
    It would be interesting to look at a map of DF19 distribution to compare it to the maps above. There are probably enough DF19 identified now that we should have a pretty good idea of its distribution. Unfortunately I don't think one exists. The FTDNA SNP map for DF19 is divided into several different subclades, and they would have to be combined into a single map.

    EDIT: After poking around a bit, I found a combined DF19 map on the semargl website. Though it is in a different format than the other maps above, I think it gives a pretty good idea on the distribution of the subclade. Perhaps someone can post it here.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 07-28-2014 at 06:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    It would be interesting to look at a map of DF19 distribution to compare it to the maps above. There are probably enough DF19 identified now that we should have a pretty good idea of its distribution. Unfortunately I don't think one exists. The FTDNA SNP map for DF19 is divided into several different subclades, and they would have to be combined into a single map.

    EDIT: After poking around a bit, I found a combined DF19 map on the semargl website. Though it is in a different format than the other maps above, I think it gives a pretty good idea on the distribution of the subclade. Perhaps someone can post it here.
    Here you go:


    Piechart of distrubition,


    48.7% with UK origin in that sample. It would be very interesting to see Busby's P312 (xL21, xU152) retested for DF19, L238, DF99 and DF27, if I recall there was also a chunk of L11* in England what's the odds that a good chunk of this is DF100.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I'm not really going out on a limb here, but I'll throw caution to the wind and go one step further...the correlation between L21, either continental or Isles, and Celtic is an almost certainty. With other subclades of P312, it may be that only certain branches (e.g. U152+L2+Z49+ and U152+L2+Z367+) were overwhelmingly "Gaulish" by the time the Romans started writing about them. After that, it gets kind of hazy (e.g. DF19 = Belgae?, Belgae = hybrid Celto-Germanic?).
    I agree with that. That is what I meant by exceptions. DF19 is a good one to bring up, and DF99 might be another, although I think the jury is still out on both of them. L238 probably never was Celtic, although it could descend from P312 Beaker immigrants to Scandinavia who at one time did speak an early form of Celtic or some kind of undifferentiated Italo-Celtic.

    Italo-Celtic might be a better description for the origin of U152, since it certainly has a strong apparently Italic correlation. No doubt many predominantly U152 tribes in Central Europe became Germanic-speaking fairly early, too.

    It is also important to remember that Germany and much of Central Europe were inhabited by Celtic tribes at one time, before the advance of the Germans and Slavs later on.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-29-2014 at 03:17 PM.
     


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    In JP Mallory's book about Ireland he reckoned that the VSO structure ofceltic languages may be down to an Afro-Asiatic substrate; could this indicate the celtic wave/invasion wasn't very large?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rossa View Post
    In JP Mallory's book about Ireland he reckoned that the VSO structure ofceltic languages may be down to an Afro-Asiatic substrate; could this indicate the celtic wave/invasion wasn't very large?
    It was probably male vectored. I think the Beaker Folk were responsible originally. From what I have seen, Beaker males traveled widely and took their women where they found them. Elite status probably led to the eventual spread and domination of their y-dna in the Isles.
     


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