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Thread: P312 and the Ancient Celts

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by CillKenny View Post
    It is also translated here

    https://www.inrap.fr/en/creation-cel...turation-12781

    Problem is I can't get either version to run for me without stopping every few seconds.
    If I understood him rightly, he traces the spread of the earliest Celts to the Bell Beaker people, which is basically what he wrote in what I quoted from him above in post #212.
     


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  3. #222
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    I think they key to Celtic is that after the P312 migration brought some Italo-Celtic or west IE language if provided a shared base on which intense ongoing contact could bring shifts across v wide areas without further invasions on a large scale. From what we know of archaeology, trade like interaction was intense 2000-700BC and from what we know of a celtic society there was probably a lot of high level alliance marriages and fosterage providing the glue in those networks. Human dowries of mercenaries are also known. The Druid and high level craftsmen classes also were mobile and protected. It was likely that a lot of constant low level movement had an effect of keeping elite dialects morphing in parallel over wide areas.

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  5. #223
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    The impact of elite marriage and the elite practice of sending your children away to be brought up in the court of another allied kingdom to provide not only alliances and social glue but to fasilitate spread of trends and linguistic convergence/prevent divergence cannot be overestimated. I think The various shifts that define Celtic spread within such networks 2200-800BC and origin points will never be known. At best we can guess that the richest looking Bronze Age cultures may have exerted more prestige but the location of the richest areas shifted over time. So the different shifts that came to define Celtic could each have arisen in different areas before spreading through the network.

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  7. #224
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    If you follow what Brun had to say, his main point is that there is no archaeological evidence for a Celtic expansion after 1600 BC into all the places Celtic came to be spoken, like Britain, Ireland, and Iberia. It had to spread before 1600 BC, and the obvious vehicle for that spread was the Bell Beaker culture.
     


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  9. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The impact of elite marriage and the elite practice of sending your children away to be brought up in the court of another allied kingdom to provide not only alliances and social glue but to fasilitate spread of trends and linguistic convergence/prevent divergence cannot be overestimated. I think The various shifts that define Celtic spread within such networks 2200-800BC and origin points will never be known. At best we can guess that the richest looking Bronze Age cultures may have exerted more prestige but the location of the richest areas shifted over time. So the different shifts that came to define Celtic could each have arisen in different areas before spreading through the network.
    Yes the 'second' shift after the Bell Beaker P312 could be the spread of the Tumulus culture for the Northwestblock it's called Sögel-Wohlde. This brought some 'Italo-Celtic or west IE language' up to North Northwest Europe.

    This culture was expansive, warrior cult, only very distinctive warrior tumulus graves etc. The Sögel Wohlde culture was 1800-1500 BC prevalent in North Dutch, NW Germany up to middle Jutland. But seems also be connected to such like cultures in Belgium, Northern France, West Germany (Hessen). And also influenced the Isles (Wessex)?

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