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Thread: L2 scarcity in Italy

  1. #1
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    L2 scarcity in Italy

    After Boattini, the peak of R1b-U152 in Italy is Brescia (51.3%). Mostly Z36. But the L2 is only 22.2%. In Italy is 39% and the maximum is outside it, Ukraine, Hungary, Poland but Western Europe as well (Uk, France, Low Countries). I come from Bergamo, near Brescia. I'm U152 but negative for L2 and L20, in facts.
    The maximum in Italy is Treviso (80%) and this fact make me think a junction between Venetics-Wends (Baltic area): no Celts in Veneto if I don't mistaken. They don't speak a Gallo-Italic dialect while in Friuli is Rhaeto-Romance.
    In the other hand, is high in Lunigiana (La Spezia-Massa), NW Italy, a typical Ligurs' site. And in Como too, 66%, Western Lombardy. Brescia is Eastern Lombardy. Brescia looks pretty isolated then.
    What does that mean? L2 is Indo-European while U152* is pre-Indo-European and "Italian"? Is this possible?

    Thanks for your help.

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  3. #2
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    Ops, sorry, I didn't see the specific sub-forum on L2.

  4. #3
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    Don't worry Orobicus; it's just been moved by a member of staff.
    Last edited by DMXX; 08-02-2014 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Didn't realise a colleague already did this!

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  6. #4
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    L2 clade is a very old and not all L2 came in Italy at the same time.
    There are some L2 (perhaps as FGC10543) who came to Italy in prehistoric times.
    Other L2 (perhaps as DF103) that came in Italy with the Lombards or the Franks.
    Perhaps also L2 + L20 + came to Italy with the Lombards.

    So you can not generalize.
    The only thing that seems certain is the origin of L2 in the Lorraine / Rhine Valley
    Here the percentage presence is too high to be able to think of a different origin.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ 7664023 et al., Pandolfo Guidi, b. ~1515, Ostra Vetere, Marches, Italy
    Maternal: U5b1b*, Delicata Frascone, b. ~1740, Sora, southern Lazio, Italy

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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alessio B. Bedini View Post
    L2 clade is a very old and not all L2 came in Italy at the same time.
    There are some L2 (perhaps as FGC10543) who came to Italy in prehistoric times.
    Other L2 (perhaps as DF103) that came in Italy with the Lombards or the Franks.
    Perhaps also L2 + L20 + came to Italy with the Lombards.

    So you can not generalize.
    The only thing that seems certain is the origin of L2 in the Lorraine / Rhine Valley
    Here the percentage presence is too high to be able to think of a different origin.
    What do you think about the lack of L2 in Brescia? And the origin of the Brixian Z36, ofc.

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  10. #6
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    Guys, let's ground ourselves here a little bit...there have been quite a few academic studies that have tested for U152(xL2) and L2 in the last few years, and the top overall frequencies are:

    Badia, South Tyrol (Coia 2013) = 0.477
    Sauris, Friuli (Coia 2013) = 0.345
    Fassa, Trentino (Coia 2013) = 0.255
    LaSpezia/Massa (Boattini 2013) = 0.250
    Treviso (Boattini 2013) = 0.242
    Fiemme,Trentino (Coia 2013) = 0.205

    The highest frequency outside of Italy "so far" is Limburg, Belgium (Larmuseau 2013) with 0.097. The highest in Germany "so far" is Bavaria, Germany (Rebala 2012) with 0.064. While we don't have many areas along the Rhine specifically tested for L2, we know that U152 itself does not reach more than ~20-22% in East France, SW Germany and northern Switzerland (Busby 2011). We know that L2 is nowhere near 100% in any of those locations based on FTDNA testing, so none of them will approach the NE Italy numbers. Using FTDNA frequency overall from the Middle Rhine however is of no use to us, since German-Americans from that region make up FTDNA's second largest testing group after Britain and Ireland.

    So, while there may be a reduced L2 presence of U152 overall in most of Italy, that isn't the case in the north-east.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 08-02-2014 at 01:48 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Guys, let's ground ourselves here a little bit...there have been quite a few academic studies that have tested for U152(xL2) and L2 in the last few years, and the top overall frequencies are:

    Badia, South Tyrol (Coia 2013) = 0.477
    Sauris, Friuli (Coia 2013) = 0.345
    Fassa, Trentino (Coia 2013) = 0.255
    LaSpezia/Massa (Boattini 2013) = 0.250
    Treviso (Boattini 2013) = 0.242
    Fiemme,Trentino (Coia 2013) = 0.205

    The highest frequency outside of Italy "so far" is Limburg, Belgium (Larmuseau 2013) with 0.097. The highest in Germany "so far" is Bavaria, Germany (Rebala 2012) with 0.064. While we don't have many areas along the Rhine specifically tested for L2, we know that U152 itself does not reach more than ~20-22% in East France, SW Germany and northern Switzerland (Busby 2011). We know that L2 is nowhere near 100% in any of those locations based on FTDNA testing, so none of them will approach the NE Italy numbers. Using FTDNA frequency overall from the Middle Rhine however is of no use to us, since German-Americans from that region make up FTDNA's second largest testing group after Britain and Ireland.

    So, while there may be a reduced L2 presence of U152 overall in most of Italy, that isn't the case in the north-east.
    You're right, but as a whole Italy is not the first place, NE is just a sector of Italy and where U152 is strong (Brescia) L2 looks weak. Which peoples carried the U152 in Brescia and the L2 in NE Italy, in your opinion?

  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobicus View Post
    You're right, but as a whole Italy is not the first place, NE is just a sector of Italy and where U152 is strong (Brescia) L2 looks weak. Which peoples carried the U152 in Brescia and the L2 in NE Italy, in your opinion?
    In Brescia, it is mostly likely Z36, which is likely to be Ligurian and Golaseccan, but likely derived from Bell Beaker expansions. However, some of it is likely Z56 or PF6658 or other smaller subclades which are impossible to classify into cultures right now.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  15. #9
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    I believe that L2 may be even more ancient than we think.
    In past years we have made many calculations with YSTR but these could be wrong.

    For example, if this mutation was originated 6000-7000 years ago, it would have no sense to connect it with the cultures of 1000-2000 years ago.

    Maybe it would be best to first discuss mutations that are found one or two levels below..
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ 7664023 et al., Pandolfo Guidi, b. ~1515, Ostra Vetere, Marches, Italy
    Maternal: U5b1b*, Delicata Frascone, b. ~1740, Sora, southern Lazio, Italy

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  17. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    In Brescia, it is mostly likely Z36, which is likely to be Ligurian and Golaseccan, but likely derived from Bell Beaker expansions. However, some of it is likely Z56 or PF6658 or other smaller subclades which are impossible to classify into cultures right now.
    Ok. It's quite curious the presence of high L2 in Lunigiana (Spezia/Massa), Ligurian territories (NW Italy), and NE Italy. If the Brixian U152 is Ligurian why is so poor of L2 in comparison with La Spezia (core of the Ligures)?

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