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Thread: Indo-Iranian Archaeology

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    What is its meaning?
    In India it also often used for horse.
    The forms are ghur and ghora.
    eg. Ghur-savaar

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    In India it also often used for horse.
    The forms are ghur and ghora.
    eg. Ghur-savaar
    "savaar" meaning "to ride"? That is the Modern Persian word for it also, if that's the case.

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  5. #13
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    Going by Khar/ghur being borrowed from BMAC into Indo-Iranian, perhaps some Dravidian dialect was being spoken there.
    http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/ety...65&root=config
    Dravidian etymology :

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    Proto-Dravidian : *kudir-
    Meaning : horse
    Proto-South Dravidian: *kudir-ai

    Proto-Telugu : *kudir-

    Proto-Kolami-Gadba : *gur_-

    Proto-Gondi-Kui : *gur_am

    Notes : It is still not quite clear if the Central Dravidian forms belong here indeed (*kudir- > *kudr- > *gur_-). Very probable is their being borrowed from a Telugu dialect.
    dravet-meaning,dravet-sdr,dravet-tel,dravet-koga,dravet-gnd,dravet-notes,

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    South Dravidian etymology :

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    Proto-South Dravidian : *kudir-ai
    Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology

    Tamil : kutirai
    Tamil meaning : horse; cock of a gun
    Malayalam : kutira
    Malayalam meaning : horse, cavalry
    Kannada : kudire, kudure, kudare
    Kannada meaning : horse, a knight at chess; cock of a gun
    Kodagu : kudɨre
    Kodagu meaning : horse
    Tulu : kudurè
    Tulu meaning : horse; lock of a gun, (B-K.) catch of an umbrella; (B-K.) grasshopper
    Proto-Nilgiri : *kudir[ä]

    Number in DED : 1711
    sdret-prnum,sdret-tam,sdret-tammean,sdret-mal,sdret-malmean,sdret-kan,sdret-kanmean,sdret-kod,sdret-kodmean,sdret-tul,sdret-tulmean,sdret-kt,sdret-dednum,

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    Nilgiri etymology :

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    Proto-Nilgiri : *kudir[ä]
    Meaning : horse
    South Dravidian etymology: South Dravidian etymology

    Kota : kudyr
    Toda : kɨɵɨr
    Number in DED : 1711
    ktet-meaning,ktet-prnum,ktet-kota,ktet-toda,ktet-dednum,

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    Telugu etymology :

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    Proto-Telugu : *kudir-
    Meaning : horse
    Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology

    Telugu : kudira
    Dialectal forms (1) : kudaramu
    Dialectal forms (2) : gur_r_amu
    Number in DED : 1711
    telet-meaning,telet-prnum,telet-tel_1,telet-tel_2,telet-tel_3,telet-dednum,

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    Kolami-Gadba etymology :

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    Proto-Kolami-Gadba : *gur_-
    Meaning : horse
    Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology

    Kolami : gurram
    Naikri : ghurram
    Naiki : kurmam/kurrmam
    Parji : gurrol (pl. gurrocil)
    Number in DED : 1711
    kogaet-meaning,kogaet-prnum,kogaet-kolami,kogaet-naikri,kogaet-naiki,kogaet-parji,kogaet-dednum,

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    Gondwan etymology :

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    Proto-Gondi-Kui : *gur_am
    Meaning : horse
    Dravidian etymology: Dravidian etymology

    Proto-Gondi : *guram

    Konda : gur_am

    Proto-Kui-Kuwi : *gurom-i

    Notes : Bisyllabic root?
    gndet-meaning,gndet-prnum,gndet-gon,gndet-kon,gndet-kui,gndet-notes,

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    Gondi etymology :

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    Proto-Gondi : *guram
    Meaning : horse
    Gondwan etymology: Gondwan etymology

    Koya Gondi : gurram (pl. gurrak)
    Number in DED : 1711
    Number in CVOTGD : 1157
    gonet-meaning,gonet-prnum,gonet-gondi_ko,gonet-dednum,gonet-voc_num,

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    Konda etymology :

    Search within this database
    Konda : gur_am
    Meaning: horse
    Gondwan etymology: Gondwan etymology

    Number in DED : 1711
    konet-meaning,konet-prnum,konet-dednum,

    Search within this database

    Kui-Kuwi etymology :

    Search within this database
    Proto-Kui-Kuwi : *gurom-i
    Meaning : horse
    Gondwan etymology: Gondwan etymology

    Kuwi (Fitzgerald) : gūrumi
    Kuwi (Schulze) : gurromi
    Number in DED : 1711
    kuiet-meaning,kuiet-prnum,kuiet-kuwi_f,kuiet-kuwi_s,kuiet-dednum,

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Going by Khar/ghur being borrowed from BMAC into Indo-Iranian, perhaps some Dravidian dialect was being spoken there.
    http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/ety...65&root=config
    Going by Wietzel's breakdown, an early substrate into "common" Indo-Iranian was distinct from later Dravidian influence in the later stages of the Rig Veda's development:


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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Going by Khar/ghur being borrowed from BMAC into Indo-Iranian, perhaps some Dravidian dialect was being spoken there.
    The donkey was domesticated in northeast Africa about 5000 years ago. It reached the Near East fairly soon after that. It must have been present in the BMAC if they had a word for it. But it did not spread with the early Neolithic, so it would not have reached India with the first farming wave there. (In any case Dravidian is seen by Blench 2008 as not representing the first farmers in India, but instead a foraging people of South Asia who turned to farming.*) So presumably Dravidian would not have its own word for the donkey. It would have borrowed it.

    *
    Broadly speaking, the earliest phase of Dravidian expansion shows no sign of agriculture but (lexically) reflects animal herding and wild food processing. This is associated with the split of Brahui from the remainder. The next phase, including Kurux and Malto, shows clear signs of agriculture (taro production but not cereals) and herding, while South and Central Dravidian have the full range of agricultural production. Fuller (2003) and Southworth (2006) link this to the aptly named South Neolithic Agricultural Complex (SNAC) dated to around 2300-1800 BC in Central India.
    Last edited by Jean M; 08-19-2014 at 10:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    The donkey was domesticated in northeast Africa about 5000 years ago. It reached the Near East fairly soon after that. It must have been present in the BMAC if they had a word for it. But it did not spread with the early Neolithic, so it would not have reached India with the first farming wave there. (In any case Dravidian is seen by Blench 2008 as not representing the first farmers in India, but instead a foraging people of South Asia who turned to farming.*) So presumably Dravidian would not have its own word for the donkey. It would have borrowed it.

    *
    Not that there is a language associated with every activity, but if the Dravidians were foragers, and the Indo-Aryans were pastoralists, who do you think brought farming into the subcontinent? Considering farming requires settlement and cannot be transmitted orally, I would expect this group to have been very succesful in reproduction.


    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    "savaar" meaning "to ride"? That is the Modern Persian word for it also, if that's the case.
    Savaar in Hindi, is from modern Persian I think (probably came with the persianized turko-mongols). The Sanskrit word to ride is Rohanam, as in Ashvarohanam(horse riding) or hasthyarohanam(elephant riding).
    Last edited by soulblighter; 08-19-2014 at 11:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulblighter View Post
    Not that there is a language associated with every activity, but if the Dravidians were foragers, and the Indo-Aryans were pastoralists, who do you think brought farming into the subcontinent? Considering farming requires settlement and cannot be transmitted orally, I would expect this group to have been very succesful in reproduction.
    Yes we certainly do see farming languages taking over in most places other than Europe, so Dravidian seemed to me the most likely language for Mehrgarh until I read Roger Blench, Re-evaluating the linguistic prehistory of South Asia (2008) (available online - just Google). Now I'm inclined to think that the IVS language was absorbed by Indo-Aryan. That would put the north part of South Asia in the same position as Europe. It lost its first farmer languages to IE.

    The term Para-Mundic for the unknown language of Witzel's RV I stage (post #14 above) is misleading, since this language appears unrelated to Munda, or at least I retain that impression from reading that I did in a rush some time ago! You probably know more than I.
    Last edited by Jean M; 08-19-2014 at 11:33 AM.

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    Bit more on this topic. In India, the hemione or khor (Equus hemionus khur) was the only equid known before the horse; a few specimens still survive in the Rann of Kutch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Bit more on this topic. In India, the hemione or khor (Equus hemionus khur) was the only equid known before the horse; a few specimens still survive in the Rann of Kutch.
    Yes, I was about to bring this up as well. It is apparently not directly to the African wild ass, and its range extended all the way to eastern Iran at some point. But I don't know if the Donkey in south Asia has any relationship with the khor.
    Speaking about the usage of "Khar", Khara was a demon (and supposedly a brother of Ravana the main antagonist) in the epic Ramayana and his armies were described as a "cloud of grey donkeys". He was the governor of Danda kingdom (where the Dandaka forest existed from where Sita was kidnapped), which bordered Kosala, the kingdom of Rama(the main protagonist).
    Last edited by soulblighter; 08-19-2014 at 02:50 PM.
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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    The donkey was domesticated in northeast Africa about 5000 years ago. It reached the Near East fairly soon after that. It must have been present in the BMAC if they had a word for it. But it did not spread with the early Neolithic, so it would not have reached India with the first farming wave there. (In any case Dravidian is seen by Blench 2008 as not representing the first farmers in India, but instead a foraging people of South Asia who turned to farming.*) So presumably Dravidian would not have its own word for the donkey. It would have borrowed it.

    *
    I'm more inclined to believe that Khar or the Dravidian Khurram was a horse or horse-like and not a donkey.
    It could indeed have been a swift wild ass of the kind you mentioned is still seen in Gujarat.

    Types of onager - wild ass - are found in a number of places and Herodotus does mention them in conjunction with Indians who had crossed the Hellespont into Greece with Xerxes' army.
    The Indian cavalry were equipped in the same manner as those on foot; but they rode both on horseback and in chariots: horses and wild-asses were yoked to those cars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Yes we certainly do see farming languages taking over in most places other than Europe, so Dravidian seemed to me the most likely language for Mehrgarh until I read Roger Blench, Re-evaluating the linguistic prehistory of South Asia (2008) (available online - just Google). Now I'm inclined to think that the IVS language was absorbed by Indo-Aryan. That would put the north part of South Asia in the same position as Europe. It lost its first farmer languages to IE.

    The term Para-Mundic for the unknown language of Witzel's RV I stage (post #14 above) is misleading, since this language appears unrelated to Munda, or at least I retain that impression from reading that I did in a rush some time ago! You probably know more than I.
    An earlier form perhaps, but Dr. Witzel does consider Para-Munda as Austric and related to Munda from the etymological examples he gives.
    http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~w...Substrates.pdf
    Para-Munda loan words in the Rgveda ... It is much more difficult to discern Munda/Austro-Asiatic words, and to distinguish them from those of an unknown local substrate (remnants of the Gangetic "Language X") ... Among the c. 380 'foreign' words of the RV, those with certain prefixes are especially
    apt to be explained from Munda (viz. directly from Austro-Asiatic) ... Typical prefixes in modern Munda are such as p-, k-, m-, ro-, ra-, ma-, a, ə-, u-, ka- ... some of them are indeed attested in the c. 300 'foreign words' of the RV ...

    Munda-like prefixes are thus very common in the RV. One has to agree with Kuiper
    1991: 39f: "According to some scholars Munda was never spoken west of Orissa, Bihar,
    Madhya Pradesh and eastern Maharashtra... The obvious occurrence of Old Munda names
    in the Rigveda points to the conclusion that this statement should be revised."
    If (some of)
    these words should not go back directly to Proto-Munda, one may think, especially in the
    case of the untypical formation Cər, of an unknown western Austro-Asiatic language, "Para-Munda" (cf. Kuiper 1962: 51, 102)...

    Is the Indus language therefore a kind of Proto-Munda? Against this may speak first of all, as Kuiper states (1991), that the RV substrate does not have infixes like Munda... If this is correct, then Rgvedic Proto-Munda represents a very old stage of Austro-Asiatic indeed...

    Munda and Para-Munda names...
    The Greater Panjab names of Gandhåra, Kubhå, Krumu, Kamboja may be added ...

    An important result therefore is, that the language of the Indus people, at least those in the Panjab, must have been Para-Munda or a western form of Austro-Asiatic...


    If Diakonoff's proposal was borne out, the gvedic Para-Munda substrate in the Panjab of c. 1500 BCE would represent an early link to Sumerian ... Notably, Sumerologists, though without any firm reasons going beyond some vague mythological allusion to more eastern territories (Dilmun, etc.), think that the Sumerians immigrated from the east, from the Indus area ...

    In short, the Panjab is an area of a Pre-gvedic, largely Para-Munda substrate that apparently overlays a still older local level which may be identical with Masica's "language X" found in the Gangetic plains (Hindi).

    The large number of agricultural words alone (Kuiper 1955) that have no Dravidian explanation indicates that the language of the Indus people cannot have been Dravidian (cf. also Southworth 1988: 663)...

    As we can no longer reckon with Dravidian influence on the early RV (see
    immediately below), this means that the language of the pre-gvedic Indus civilization, at
    least in the Panjab, was of (Para-)Austro-Asiatic nature.
    This means that all proposals for a decipherment of the Indus script must start with
    the c. 300 (Para-)Austro-Asiatic loan words in the RV and by comparing other Munda and
    Austro-Asiatic words.

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