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Thread: Allegedly Native American C5c1a

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    Allegedly Native American C5c1a

    The family stories posted on the Geno 2.0 web site (probably visible only to logged-in customers) often raise more questions than they answer. For example:

    C5c1a is a Eurasian subclade, found from Germany to Uzbekistan. This subclade has 4 Geno stories. Three of them describe Central European ancestry (German, Hungarian, and Polish), but the fourth suggests a Native American lineage:
    ---
    C5c1a apache101786 My mothers mother was from New Mexico. She was adopted but we were told she had some Spanish and Apache. I traced her back on ancestry.com and found out her great grandmother had a Spanish name, that was 1800's New Mexico.
    ---

    Since the maternal grandmother is adopted, nothing is certain in this case. Nevertheless, it is very intriguing. It is easy to picture an Apache woman 100 years ago pretending to be Central European, in order to place her daughter for adoption more easily. The reverse--a Central European woman pretending to be Apache--is much harder to imagine.

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    Interesting. Over at 23andme, they have a few threads about this. You will probably have to sign in to view. In this one https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/19821/ a poster indicates that their maternal line has been in Georgia, U.S.A. before the early 1700s, and has no links to Poland. (Where the poster thinks the latest research shows this haplogroup to be found.)

    In this other thread https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/21796/ someone is reporting they are Choctaw and European, but they don't clarify which side of the family is which. Another person reports that their direct maternal line is French Canadian, but supposedly from Normandy. She is C5b, but we know 23andme doesn't always give the full subclade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Táltos View Post
    She is C5b, but we know 23andme doesn't always give the full subclade.
    23andMe lists the defining mutations of C5b as:
    ---
    C5b defining mutations
    variant call rCRS anc
    i3000926 10454 T
    i5049873 10454 T
    i4000690 16518 G
    i4990307 16527 C
    ---

    Anc refers here not to the true ancestral state, but to the rCRS.

    Phylotree now considers these three mutations at 10454, 16518, and 16527 to define subclade C5c. Thus, any 23andMe assignment to C5b actually refers to (what we now call) C5c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Táltos View Post
    In this one https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/19821/ a poster indicates that their maternal line has been in Georgia, U.S.A. before the early 1700s, and has no links to Poland. (Where the poster thinks the latest research shows this haplogroup to be found.)

    In this other thread https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/21796/ someone is reporting they are Choctaw and European, but they don't clarify which side of the family is which. Another person reports that their direct maternal line is French Canadian, but supposedly from Normandy.
    The real question, then, is whether C5c1 occurs in the British Isles or France. If it does, one can easily deduce its colonial migration to North America.

    But if C5c1 does not occur in Western Europe, the puzzle becomes far more difficult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The real question, then, is whether C5c1 occurs in the British Isles or France. If it does, one can easily deduce its colonial migration to North America.

    But if C5c1 does not occur in Western Europe, the puzzle becomes far more difficult.
    Sure, too bad the Haplogroup mtDNA C Project doesn't list the most distant known maternal ancestor in the results. There are eight C5c1a listed. If you go to the map though you can pull up four of them. One lists Tennessee, another Jackson, Alabama, the third one has Cantanzaro, Italy, and the fourth Bashkortostan. https://www.familytreedna.com/public...?section=mtmap If you put in just C5c on the map, a lone one in Afghanistan shows up.

    They do list in the background of the project that those who have haplogroup mtDNA C have been found in these areas:
    Argentina, Belize, Bolivia, Brazil, California, Canada, Chile(Basque) ,Colombia, Colorado, Cuba, Ecuador, France, Germany, Guatemala,, Japan, Mexico, Peru, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Russian Federation, Spain (Basque), Sweden, United States, Venezuela.

    But no specific breakdown of which subclade of C. One could speculate about the C in France though given the history of France's early settlement in Canada. Had they been Native American and brought back to France? It would be interesting to know more about that one.
    Last edited by Táltos; 08-25-2014 at 05:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Táltos View Post
    Sure, too bad the Haplogroup mtDNA C Project doesn't list the most distant known maternal ancestor in the results. There are eight C5c1a listed. If you go to the map though you can pull up four of them. One lists Tennessee, another Jackson, Alabama, the third one has Cantanzaro, Italy, and the fourth Bashkortostan. https://www.familytreedna.com/public...?section=mtmap If you put in just C5c on the map, a lone one in Afghanistan shows up.

    They do list in the background of the project that those who have haplogroup mtDNA C have been found in these areas:
    Argentina, Belize, Bolivia, Brazil, California, Canada, Chile(Basque) ,Colombia, Colorado, Cuba, Ecuador, France, Germany, Guatemala,, Japan, Mexico, Peru, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Russian Federation, Spain (Basque), Sweden, United States, Venezuela.

    But no specific breakdown of which subclade of C. One could speculate about the C in France though given the history of France's early settlement in Canada. Had they been Native American and brought back to France? It would be interesting to know more about that one.
    Maybe migration routes for C4a1, C5c and C7b are interconnected. Are there any C5's outside the U.S in the Americas?
    Oot, My closest mtDNA matches for C4a1 are from Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine and Nordic countries (and interestingly not to the C4a1a presently in NE India).
    Paternal YDNA: G-P303+ -> G-Z30522+
    Paternal mtDNA: U7a3b1
    Maternal YDNA: R-Z2123+ -> R-YP526+
    Maternal mtDNA: C4a1 (T195C!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulblighter View Post
    Maybe migration routes for C4a1, C5c and C7b are interconnected. Are there any C5's outside the U.S in the Americas?
    Oot, My closest mtDNA matches for C4a1 are from Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine and Nordic countries (and interestingly not to the C4a1a presently in NE India).
    I can't really find much on C5. I found this, but it's 4 yrs old now. You might have seen this already. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0015214

    Hopefully someone is researching these interesting subclades of mtDNA C, and we read about them soon.

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    I tested with 23andme and they gave me the C5B1 haplogroup, which seems to be C5C1a thru MTDNA Haplogroup Analysis (James Lick)... My great grandmother came to USA from Poland in 1903, and outside of that, I don't know much else, except that it points towards native Siberian ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C5B1 View Post
    I tested with 23andme and they gave me the C5B1 haplogroup, which seems to be C5C1a thru MTDNA Haplogroup Analysis (James Lick)... My great grandmother came to USA from Poland in 1903, and outside of that, I don't know much else, except that it points towards native Siberian ancestry.
    What part of Poland?

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    The story for C5c1a apache101786 has changed. "My maternal line dead ends with a lady named Lucy C. (Unknown maiden name) born 1846 in Tennessee.
    " A person having been adopted and then the descendants being "told" she had some Spanish and Apache ancestry is extremely weak evidence.

    The Ian Logan site which compiles mtDNA results from published studies and 23andme submissions to him does not have a single Native American or Hispanic for C5c1a or even for C5.

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