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Thread: R1b-CTS9219

  1. #1
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    R1b-CTS9219

    If the entire R1b Ossetian cluster is CTS9219+, and we are pretty confident that the Albanian/Greek 11-11 STR haplotype are also CTS9219+. Does this tell us anything about the ancient Albanians+IE speaking Greeks origins? Perhaps a homeland in the steppes around the NE Caucasus/Caspian Sea?

    Any thoughts, proofs, or disproofs?
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    CTS9219 seems to be roughly 3500 years old. The Balkan cluster seems to be about 2500 years old. If this is true, then most probably the Balkan cluster originated during the Hellenistic period on the Balkans after an earlier spread of CTS9219 from Northern Caucasus through Europe. To me it is more interesting how come there are CTS9219+ Armenians. Maybe they moved from the Balkans into Asia Minor before the Balkan cluster was formed. The estimated migration of the Bryginas/Phrygians (which are thought to be the proto-Armenians) from the Balkans to Asia Minor is thought to have happened between 1200 and 800 BC which fits the above time frame.

    These are very rough estimates of mine. Hopefully somebody can provide more accurate data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    If the entire R1b Ossetian cluster is CTS9219+, and we are pretty confident that the Albanian/Greek 11-11 STR haplotype are also CTS9219+. Does this tell us anything about the ancient Albanians+IE speaking Greeks origins? Perhaps a homeland in the steppes around the NE Caucasus/Caspian Sea?

    Any thoughts, proofs, or disproofs?
    I don't know of Greek, but Armenians are of interest 1 has tested positive for upstream CTS-7822 with also possible CTS 9219
    b3b. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ should test CTS9219
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

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    Quote Originally Posted by brygian View Post
    CTS9219 seems to be roughly 3500 years old. The Balkan cluster seems to be about 2500 years old. If this is true, then most probably the Balkan cluster originated during the Hellenistic period on the Balkans after an earlier spread of CTS9219 from Northern Caucasus through Europe. To me it is more interesting how come there are CTS9219+ Armenians. Maybe they moved from the Balkans into Asia Minor before the Balkan cluster was formed. The estimated migration of the Bryginas/Phrygians (which are thought to be the proto-Armenians) from the Balkans to Asia Minor is thought to have happened between 1200 and 800 BC which fits the above time frame.

    These are very rough estimates of mine. Hopefully somebody can provide more accurate data.
    This would make sense since the Balkan cluster with 385ab = 11-11 signature is a subset of the CTS9219 branch.

    The reason for the post is because there is some discussion and disagreement with how IE speakers arrived in Albania and Greece. It's not clear from what I understand, and it wasn't clear at all, if not entirely shoved under the rug when I read HWL a few years back. (it was dry so I probably forgot a lot of stuff)
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 09-11-2014 at 08:59 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    6 of the 39 R1b Greeks are likely CTS9219, not to mention some others might be as well if they have the same Ossetian signature.

    Are there any STR in particular, aside from the Balkan 11-11 signature that can predict CTS9219?
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Wouldn't rule out that CTS9219 got it's start in the Balkins or Carpathian Mountains although Asia Minor does seem more likely. Whatever, because of the diffuse distribution in Europe, it's my gut feeling that these subclades of R1b-Z2103 entered the rest of Europe really late in the game. Maybe 500 to 600 years ago or so excluding the Jewish diaspora which likely carried R1b-L277 and L584 from the Middle East at a earlier time.

    They have been using DYS446=14 to help identify CTS9219 and usually DYS449 is 30 or higher. Of course these guides may change as more testing comes in.
    Last edited by Joe B; 09-11-2014 at 09:27 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    The Hungarian Jászság DNA Project - have DYS385[11-14]
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...TS9219&p=51513

    The region around Arkhangelsk[14%] have been have also DYS385[11-14] I don't about the Komi;it shows them also having R1b.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group
    Oleg Balanovsky, Siiri Rootsi, Andrey Pshenichnov et al., "Two Sources of the Russian Patrilineal Heritage in Their Eurasian Context," American Journal of Human Genetics 82, 236–250, January 200
    Odds are U98VT 1100+/-CE Czech is also most likely CTS-9219+

    Here is the current mapping.
    http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/637/
    Last edited by Silesian; 09-11-2014 at 09:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Are there any STR in particular, aside from the Balkan 11-11 signature that can predict CTS9219?
    DYS446>14 is most certainly Balkan but not a must. DYS459=8-10 and DYS393=13 are indicative too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brygian View Post
    Wow interesting Smyrna is on your list.
    Roy J King and al -2011 The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%).........Our population samples included a total of 89 male subjects, currently living in Greece, who trace their grand-paternal ancestry to either the area near Phokaia (n = 31) or Smyrna (n = 58) prior to the 1923 Exchange of Lausanne..
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

    I'm not so sure your entries are fully Balkan though?
    Here is one example using MDLP World-22 Oracle result on one of the entries.

    1 81.3% Ukrainian-Center (derived) + 18.7% Tatar (derived) @ 2.42
    2 86.6% Belarusian_V (derived) + 13.4% Tadjik (derived) @ 2.49
    3 88.6% Ukrainian-Center (derived) + 11.4% Udmurd (derived) @ 2.57
    4 62.9% Mordovian (derived) + 37.1% Croatian (derived) @ 2.61
    5 90.2% Ukrainian-Center (derived) + 9.8% Bashkir (derived) @ 2.65
    6 64.9% Mordovian (derived) + 35.1% Bosnian (derived) @ 2.76
    7 90.3% Ukrainian_V (derived) + 9.7% Udmurd (derived) @ 2.77
    8 88.6% Belarusian_V (derived) + 11.4% Pashtun (derived) @ 2.81
    Last edited by Silesian; 09-11-2014 at 11:34 PM.

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