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Thread: Book on the Celts: surname-subclade connections wanted

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    Book on the Celts: surname-subclade connections wanted

    I am currently working on a book on the Celts to be published next year. I am keen to include some success stories in linking subclades of P312 to specific surnames. I had in mind:

    • R1b-L144: Whalen/Phelan and Rosser
    • R1b-L555/S393: Irwin/Irvine etc.
    • R1b-L745/S463: Stewart
    • R1b-Z196: Dwyer/Ryan


    All corrections and suggestions welcome. Feel free to contact me by PM if you prefer anonymity on here.

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    R1b-DF85 and it's subclade R1b-DF97 appears connected to Cenél Conaill surnames (Gallagher, O'Donnell, O'Doherty), that's under M222. The half-brother of the "O'Conor Don" is confirmed as R1b-M222+ thus linking the O'Connor's of Connacht (Uí Briúin Aí) to M222

    R1b-L226 linked to the O'Brien's and other Dál gCais surnames. "The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin) has recently done BigY testing and is confirmed R1b-L226+.

    R1b-CTS4466 linked to serveral surnames derived from the Eoghanacht of Munster (Irish Type II cluster) including McCarthy, Murphy and O'Mahoney.

    R1b-L513 linked to Maguire and several related surnames of Fermanagh (Airgíalla II cluster) -- Maguires were Lords of Fermanagh until 1607
    R1b-DF21 specifically S971/Z3017 linked to "Clann Colla" (Airgíalla I cluster) basically McMahon lordship of Monaghan during middle ages until the intentional execution of "The McMahon" by the Tudor state and the shiring of the lordship.

    The seven "septs of Laois" appear to be R1b-DF21+ (O'Moore been one of prime families, a family also whose power was destroyed by the Tudor state)

    R1b-Z255 (L159 is variable) appears linked to several "dynasts" within what could be classed as the Laighin (Laigin = old Irish) aka "Leinstermen", so O'Bryne, O'Toole, Kavanagh, Murphy etc.

    R1b-DF27 (Z196-) appears connected to the O'Neill's of Ulster (who aren't thus M222) this ties in with lineage discussed in this document:
    www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

    That's just some of the top of my head.
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    @ Dubhthach Thank you very much. I think I had most of those in my notes, but the "The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin) result is news to me. Excellent! I'm keen to go for one or two families with some paper history.

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    Dennis Wright posted this on the L21 mailing list


    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: Dennis Wright [email protected] [R1b-L21-Project] <[email protected]>
    Date: Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 12:02 PM
    Subject: [R1b-L21-Project] Fwd: Great day for Irish Type III R-L226 Group
    To: [email protected]



    Yesterday 19 results from the branching SNP under L226, FGC5628 came in.

    33% were -ve and 67% were +ve showing this is a significant branch under L226. We are still waiting for the results of a further 8 x FGC5628 tests.
    The results from the second branching SNP, DC1, are still to come in and 20 men have ordered this SNP.

    The final piece of good news is that the Big-Y results for Sir Conor O'Brien, Chief of the Clan, have been received, which shows there is a FURTHER branch in the L226 below DC1, a SNP called YFS231286.

    A further block has been added to the Z253 Tree
    R-L226 Big-Y results:- https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...0Analysis.xlsx
    Z253 Big-Y results:- https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Y%20Novel.xlsx

    Eleven further R-L226 Big-Y results are expected from orders placed with the Father' Day sale.
    How many further branches will Big-Y reveal?

    --
    Dennis Wright
    Donnchadh Mac an tSaoir
    Irish Type III R-L226
    "We are merely the present-day custodians of our Ancestors genes."
    ---



    "Baron Inchiquin" is something like 32 generations direct descendant of Brian Boru (d. 1014) with a fully verified lineage.


    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: Dennis Wright [email protected] [R1b-L21-Project] <[email protected]>
    Date: Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 11:58 PM
    Subject: Re: [R1b-L21-Project] Fwd: Great day for Irish Type III R-L226 Group
    To: [email protected]



    Paul,

    Yes, Conor is happy for it to be known, if it assists in the knowledge and use of Big-Y that he is 32nd in descent from Brian Boru, 941-1014AD.
    So in his line, 32 generations over 1,002 years, (birth date to birth date) or 31.3 years per generation.

    With a further 11 x L226 men testing Big-Y, I believe we will generate a strong genetic family tree for the Dal gCais clan.

    Dennis Wright

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    You're a little ahead of our pace of testing UK cousins (trying to prove matches where the paper record is weak or wanting), over 'ere in the colonies. But in case it's of any interest -- being in Bristol, and all -- I've previously posted here about a small cluster I'm in (under P312, DF27) that includes several surnames from that part of SW England.

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post44289

    I haven't claimed they are Celts, but it's your book, and I've certainly enjoyed your other one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I am currently working on a book on the Celts to be published next year. I am keen to include some success stories in linking subclades of P312 to specific surnames. I had in mind:

    • R1b-L144: Whalen/Phelan and Rosser
    • R1b-L555/S393: Irwin/Irvine etc.
    • R1b-L745/S463: Stewart
    • R1b-Z196: Dwyer/Ryan


    All corrections and suggestions welcome. Feel free to contact me by PM if you prefer anonymity on here.
    Well all my Clarke ancestors were U152 (probably Z49), though I wonder if this counts for other Clarke folks out there (my Clarke line came from modern-day Suffolk, an area which was once stood in the Iceni tribe's territory, and there's a local U152 peak where my grandfather's paternal ancestors came from).
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
    יחזקאל פרק טז פסוק ג-

    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח פסוק כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Well all my Clarke ancestors were U152 .
    Thanks for letting me know, but unfortunately this is one of those common surnames for which there will be many different Y-DNA lineages. I need to avoid those. If I want to make the point that we can connect Y-DNA and surnames, I think I need to go for the little subclades that get close to being a single family lineage from the time of surname creation, though there are special cases (like Whalen and Rosser) that make a different point i.e. tracking a family connection with different surnames.
    Last edited by Jean M; 09-17-2014 at 05:28 PM.

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    I'm not sure if my surname would be one that you would have in your book, but it does seem to match a few of your requirements. As you know it isn't the most common name in the UK or Ireland, though there are a few distinct branches I am aware of. The Welsh variety is relatively new and due to the patronymic naming system, it is too convoluted to attribute to one specific subclade. The Jewish variety faces a similar problem to the Welsh variety, it is new and many different, unrelated people adopted it. There is my own variety which appears to have possibly been introduced via the Normans and has remained in Devon for centuries. There is also a second variety from Lincolnshire. This branch appears to belong to haplo I1-M253. The only Welsh participant we have had tested also belongs to haplo I1-M253. The family traces its ancestry back to South Wales, the area of highest frequency for the name. My variety is the only known branch of P312 Isaac's and is quite small and mainly limited to Devon. Though I don't really know if it would be considered Celtic.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    R1b-DF85 and it's subclade R1b-DF97 appears connected to Cenél Conaill surnames (Gallagher, O'Donnell, O'Doherty), that's under M222. The half-brother of the "O'Conor Don" is confirmed as R1b-M222+ thus linking the O'Connor's of Connacht (Uí Briúin Aí) to M222

    R1b-L226 linked to the O'Brien's and other Dál gCais surnames. "The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin) has recently done BigY testing and is confirmed R1b-L226+.

    R1b-CTS4466 linked to serveral surnames derived from the Eoghanacht of Munster (Irish Type II cluster) including McCarthy, Murphy and O'Mahoney.

    R1b-L513 linked to Maguire and several related surnames of Fermanagh (Airgíalla II cluster) -- Maguires were Lords of Fermanagh until 1607
    R1b-DF21 specifically S971/Z3017 linked to "Clann Colla" (Airgíalla I cluster) basically McMahon lordship of Monaghan during middle ages until the intentional execution of "The McMahon" by the Tudor state and the shiring of the lordship.

    The seven "septs of Laois" appear to be R1b-DF21+ (O'Moore been one of prime families, a family also whose power was destroyed by the Tudor state)

    R1b-Z255 (L159 is variable) appears linked to several "dynasts" within what could be classed as the Laighin (Laigin = old Irish) aka "Leinstermen", so O'Bryne, O'Toole, Kavanagh, Murphy etc.

    R1b-DF27 (Z196-) appears connected to the O'Neill's of Ulster (who aren't thus M222) this ties in with lineage discussed in this document:
    www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

    That's just some of the top of my head.
    I agree with Pauls list and would add Ely O Carroll to R1b-DF21 above. This line has a genealogy going back to the 9th century and includes Charles Carroll of Carrollton, Signer of the US Declaration of Independence. A famous ascendant was OCearbhaill Mac Dunlainge who was King of Ossory and enemy of the Vikings. The most famous of the Cearbhaill's were the Ely O'Carroll's of Uíbh Fhailí (an ancient townland) which includes present day County Offaly and parts of Tipperary. They derived their name from Cearbhall, King of Ely (Éile), he was one of the leaders who fought and led the Elyans into battle with the victorious Brian Boru army at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014.

    http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorco...l21-df13-df21/

    http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorco...ely-o-carroll/

    http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorco...ands-surnames/

    R1b-L226 includes the genealogy of The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin), which traces back to Brian Boru, whose Millennium we celebrate this year and the Battle of Clontarf.

    http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorco...l21-df13-z253/

    R1b-CTS4466 includes the Cormac McCarthy Bishop King of Cashel, whose crypt is in the Rock of Cashel.

    R1b-M222 are well represented by O Donnell, O Doherty, Kelly, O Connor

    http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorco...l21-df13-df49/

    A summary of the major subclades under L21 and their surname analysis can be found here.

    http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/

    L21 and related Surnames.jpg

    There is still a lot of work to do in linking the vastly expanded Phylogenetic Tree under L21 to the 100+ detailed ancient genealogies.

    GBIG.jpg

    http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534765828359/
    Last edited by Heber; 09-17-2014 at 10:30 PM.
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    Jean, I believe the Dwyer/Ryan group is actually Z196-. However, very recently they have discovered a common snp below DF27 that this group shares and is now available for testing through FTDNA. I also think that L165 might be a good snp to look into as it largely is found amongst the MacLeod and MacDonald Clans. There has been much debate about this snp being of Norse origin. I at first assumed this was because it was also found in Norway and surrounding areas. However, after running through the various projects, there is very little of it found outside of the British Isles. In fact, outside of the MacLeod and MacDonald Clans the next largest cluster is found in England. It could make for an interesting argument, particularly, if the claim of Norse origin is more due to the oral tradition of both of these clans being gaelicized Norse.

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