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Thread: L21 in the Rhineland

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    L21 in the Rhineland

    I would like to start a discussion on this forum about L21 in the Rhineland. And, there is no better way to get that initiated than with the presentation of new and (hopefully) thought-provoking information…

    The observation as seen on the attached map is either an extraordinary coincidence or a clue to the geographic origin of one of the “sons” of DF13, which in turn, may provide insights into the geographic origin of DF13 and L21. That SNP would be FGC5494, which Mark Jost estimates to date from about 1600 BCE. The attached map overlays the ancestral locations of the seven known and suspected (based on 67 STR marker haplotypes) FGC5494 “continental” members onto a map from Barry Cunliffe’s Ancient Celts. Cunliffe’s map shows the locations of La Tène pottery findings as black dots. For the mapping of FGC5494 ancestral locations, I plotted the districts having the highest surname density (all the surnames had clearly identifiable hotspots), except for a member who documents his MDKA back to 1636, for which I used the town of his MDKA. The FGC5494 surname locations are shown as either dark red or light/dark orange dots. Remarkably, four of the FGC5494 members cluster within 30+/- miles of one another in area just west of the Rhine in the Landkreis (districts) near Bad Dürkheim. The four represent two of the known downstream “subclades” of FGC5494: FGC5496 and Z16502. Three of the four are NGS SNP tested and a third has the same STR “varietal” signature on Mike Walsh’s L21 Group as a fourth NGS SNP tester. Based on the SNP and STR differences among the four, it is highly improbable any of the four could share a common patrilineal ancestor during the historic period and clearly the two subclade sets date to pre-Iron Age. These are distant genetic relationships sharing a very small geographic area in common.

    In addition to Bell Beaker and Corded Ware archaeological findings, the area around Bad Dürkheim is home to a concentration of Celtic archaeological sites, including one of the largest oppida, Donnersberg, which location has been in use from the late Bronze Age through the Iron Age. Additional oppida in the area include Heidenmauer, Kastel and Otzenhausen. Among well-known Celtic artifacts from the area is the Schwarzenbach cup, which Simon James dates to 475 – 450 BCE. According to a German archaeological website, this area was at the crossroads of the north-south trade route along the Rhine and the east-west trade route through the Isenach-Kaiserlauterner Valley to the Marne and Seine basin during the Halstatt and La Tène periods (note that one of the French surnames hotspots to the Marne district). Manuel Fernández-Götz in Identity and Power, the Transformation of Iron Age Societies in Northeast Gaul, (a recently published book -- originally a doctoral dissertation -- that I highly recommend reading) asserts that the archeological and pollen records indicate the region experienced “…a real and sharp fall in population…” commencing around 400 BCE and ending around 150 BCE. Thus, evidence suggesting the region where the so-called “Celtic migrations” originated.

    STR phylogenetic tree (fluxus) analyses Mark Jost conducted for SNPs downstream of FGC5496 (which resides below FGC5494) are consistent with migration from the middle Rhine. The downstream continental members’ SNPs and downstream Isles members’ SNPs are estimated to have branched off from one another either before or during the La Tène period. Interestingly, the Irish members of these downstream SNPs (e.g., CTS2457, whose “father” SNP, S1088, comprises two of the four “Bad Dürkheim” members and Jost dates to 650 – 150 BCE) have a concentrated distribution in the northern half of Ireland. These include the counties of Armagh, Roscommon, Tyrone and Meath – all locales where La Tène archaeological sites exist. The only surname under CTS2457 not from the northern half of Ireland is from Oxfordshire, home to the earliest La Tène art findings in eastern England. Although he generally dismisses migration with La Tène adoption in the Isles, Simon James states in The World of the Celts: “La Tène metalwork does appear by 250 BC… These may have been inspired by imports such as the Clonmacnois torc (c. 300 BC) [found in Knock, Co. Roscommon], which, if not actually made in the Rhineland, shows strong stylistic influence from this region.”

    My point in this entry is not to start a debate about whether the post mid-twentieth century fashion among scholars regarding the movement of continental Celts to the Isles is misguided (although the genetic evidence associated with SNP5494 and its downstream SNPs suggest strong support making that argument), but to focus attention on the Rhineland as either the geographic home or an early settlement area for L21. Given the ancient DNA findings at the Bell-Beaker site in Kromsdorf (i.e., two remains were R1b, but not U106) and the indication of the middle Rhine being home to a very old SNP under L21, the evidence suggest that is a strong possibility.
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    Hi fellow FGC 5494,
    Interesting thought provoking post. The distribution of the FGC 5494 sub-clade is widespread and interesting - though it is early days to know the frequency and full distribution in the current population (just look at the developments in the last week!).
    Have you considered an alternative hypothesis - that FGC5494 people could have been mariners/passengers during the Atlantic Bronze Age and travelled up the Rhine from the Atlantic, carrying metals and possibly livestock? Their origin/home could equally be Brittany, England, Ireland etc?
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRW View Post
    I would like to start a discussion on this forum about L21 in the Rhineland. And, there is no better way to get that initiated than with the presentation of new and (hopefully) thought-provoking information…

    The observation as seen on the attached map is either an extraordinary coincidence or a clue to the geographic origin of one of the “sons” of DF13, which in turn, may provide insights into the geographic origin of DF13 and L21. That SNP would be FGC5494, which Mark Jost estimates to date from about 1600 BCE. The attached map overlays the ancestral locations of the seven known and suspected (based on 67 STR marker haplotypes) FGC5494 “continental” members onto a map from Barry Cunliffe’s Ancient Celts. Cunliffe’s map shows the locations of La Tène pottery findings as black dots. For the mapping of FGC5494 ancestral locations, I plotted the districts having the highest surname density (all the surnames had clearly identifiable hotspots), except for a member who documents his MDKA back to 1636, for which I used the town of his MDKA. The FGC5494 surname locations are shown as either dark red or light/dark orange dots. Remarkably, four of the FGC5494 members cluster within 30+/- miles of one another in area just west of the Rhine in the Landkreis (districts) near Bad Dürkheim. The four represent two of the known downstream “subclades” of FGC5494: FGC5496 and Z16502. Three of the four are NGS SNP tested and a third has the same STR “varietal” signature on Mike Walsh’s L21 Group as a fourth NGS SNP tester. Based on the SNP and STR differences among the four, it is highly improbable any of the four could share a common patrilineal ancestor during the historic period and clearly the two subclade sets date to pre-Iron Age. These are distant genetic relationships sharing a very small geographic area in common.

    In addition to Bell Beaker and Corded Ware archaeological findings, the area around Bad Dürkheim is home to a concentration of Celtic archaeological sites, including one of the largest oppida, Donnersberg, which location has been in use from the late Bronze Age through the Iron Age. Additional oppida in the area include Heidenmauer, Kastel and Otzenhausen. Among well-known Celtic artifacts from the area is the Schwarzenbach cup, which Simon James dates to 475 – 450 BCE. According to a German archaeological website, this area was at the crossroads of the north-south trade route along the Rhine and the east-west trade route through the Isenach-Kaiserlauterner Valley to the Marne and Seine basin during the Halstatt and La Tène periods (note that one of the French surnames hotspots to the Marne district). Manuel Fernández-Götz in Identity and Power, the Transformation of Iron Age Societies in Northeast Gaul, (a recently published book -- originally a doctoral dissertation -- that I highly recommend reading) asserts that the archeological and pollen records indicate the region experienced “…a real and sharp fall in population…” commencing around 400 BCE and ending around 150 BCE. Thus, evidence suggesting the region where the so-called “Celtic migrations” originated.

    STR phylogenetic tree (fluxus) analyses Mark Jost conducted for SNPs downstream of FGC5496 (which resides below FGC5494) are consistent with migration from the middle Rhine. The downstream continental members’ SNPs and downstream Isles members’ SNPs are estimated to have branched off from one another either before or during the La Tène period. Interestingly, the Irish members of these downstream SNPs (e.g., CTS2457, whose “father” SNP, S1088, comprises two of the four “Bad Dürkheim” members and Jost dates to 650 – 150 BCE) have a concentrated distribution in the northern half of Ireland. These include the counties of Armagh, Roscommon, Tyrone and Meath – all locales where La Tène archaeological sites exist. The only surname under CTS2457 not from the northern half of Ireland is from Oxfordshire, home to the earliest La Tène art findings in eastern England. Although he generally dismisses migration with La Tène adoption in the Isles, Simon James states in The World of the Celts: “La Tène metalwork does appear by 250 BC… These may have been inspired by imports such as the Clonmacnois torc (c. 300 BC) [found in Knock, Co. Roscommon], which, if not actually made in the Rhineland, shows strong stylistic influence from this region.”

    My point in this entry is not to start a debate about whether the post mid-twentieth century fashion among scholars regarding the movement of continental Celts to the Isles is misguided (although the genetic evidence associated with SNP5494 and its downstream SNPs suggest strong support making that argument), but to focus attention on the Rhineland as either the geographic home or an early settlement area for L21. Given the ancient DNA findings at the Bell-Beaker site in Kromsdorf (i.e., two remains were R1b, but not U106) and the indication of the middle Rhine being home to a very old SNP under L21, the evidence suggest that is a strong possibility.
    I am not very up to date with L21. Is M222 part of the DF13 grouping? The reason I ask is in the Schlegel/Slagle DNA Surname project, three of the 10 lineages are predicted M222 by FTDNA. I consider this pretty high for a German origin surname. Most trace their lineages to the town of Schlegel in Thuringia. Being that Schlegel is a place name it is not surprising for there to be multiple lineages for this surname. Your thoughts?

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    Hi Bob,

    Good question.

    Yes, I considered alternatives, including migrations up the Rhine or across land from the Bronze Age through the Völkerwanderung. We either do not have evidence at this time to suggest an alternative, or the alternative is too improbable.

    In my own view, given its age, I am actually somewhat surprised FGC5494 members are not more widely distributed. Other than Isles members, we have four members who cluster around Bad Dürkheim, one to the east in Schweinfurt, one to the west in the Marne district, and one in Dieppe. That’s it. Look at the distribution of DF13, which isn't much older. However, given how well FGC5496 correlates with La Tène period sites, I do expect eventually to see FGC5494 in northern Italy and Bohemia.

    Best,

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    I am not very up to date with L21. Is M222 part of the DF13 grouping? The reason I ask is in the Schlegel/Slagle DNA Surname project, three of the 10 lineages are predicted M222 by FTDNA. I consider this pretty high for a German origin surname. Most trace their lineages to the town of Schlegel in Thuringia. Being that Schlegel is a place name it is not surprising for there to be multiple lineages for this surname. Your thoughts?
    M222 is good bit downstream of DF13. Here's the snp trail to it:

    L21 -> DF13 -> DF49 -> Z2983 -> DF23 -> Z2961 -> M222 (and over 30 equivalents!)

    Under M222 there is a snp called S7073, only one M222+/S7073- has been founded supposed by Chromo2, every other M222+ tested is S7073+

    As regards to L21 see Alex Williamson's excellent "BigY"/NGS tree here, the structure has really broaden out now that we have NGS testing (use "ctrl-F" in your browser to open search box and search for specific SNP)

    It would be very interesting to get one of these Schlegel's to do some further testing under M222, as the structure under it has really spilt out in last 6months:



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    Sorry bout the jump to M222 there, back to FGC5494 which is looking like a very interesting SNP that's for sure, if you look at Alex's chart it doesn't have any "equivalent SNP's" it's basically just one step below DF13 (which only has one equivalent). This points to a very old SNP, the spread is also very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    I am not very up to date with L21. Is M222 part of the DF13 grouping? The reason I ask is in the Schlegel/Slagle DNA Surname project, three of the 10 lineages are predicted M222 by FTDNA. I consider this pretty high for a German origin surname. Most trace their lineages to the town of Schlegel in Thuringia. Being that Schlegel is a place name it is not surprising for there to be multiple lineages for this surname. Your thoughts?
    I made a quick comparison of the three with the STR GDs to the kits in Mike Walsh's L21 spreadsheet. I agree with the comment that additional testing would be useful, especially for the kit that only has tested out to 37 STR markers. However, the two that have tested-out to 67 markers have several surnames, all Irish, with whom they share a GD of 6 or less (I use a GD of 6 at 67 markers as a ballpark estimate of relatedness since the adoption of surnames), and one surname is shared at GDs of 4 or less. This suggest that at least the two, if not the three, descend from a migrant from Ireland to Germany since the adoption of surnames.

    Best,

    Jim

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    As we are understanding, DF13 with over 20 branches has had a massive number of sons and their sons. It appears to have continued into the branch FGC5494>FGC5561 with seven branches with two of these beginning to expand early in area just west of the Rhine in the Landkreis (districts) near Bad Durkheim as Jim has pointed out. FGC54594's 67 marker modal is only six GD from L21 which props up the Jim's theory.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9...it?usp=sharing

    FGC5494>FGC5561's subclades, having such a quick expansion, could have been heavily involved in both land and seafaring trade arising from its point of cross-roads origin before or during the La Tène period. Early on, this tribe created Irish Sea routes and establishing trading colonies on the Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and Manx Coasts, well before 475 – 450 BCE, giving these various FGC5561 branches foot holds into the colonies across north half of Europe west of the Rhine and into the Isles as shown via historical evidence which has survived across the Isles and on the continent as per work by Norman Mongan.

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    Thanks Mark,
    I would love to think I was connected to the Menapii seafarers. I have speculated that the Kenyon's may have arrived in England from Normandy/Brittany during the Norman conquest and that would fit with some of Norman Mongan's thoughts. (By the way - any e-versions of The Menapii quest available - $135 for a second hand copy is beyond my means). I even want to relate to his St Patrick musings. There is nothing more beautiful than sitting on Croagh Patrick looking over the drumlin fields in Clew Bay - truely spectacular.

    The evidence.
    Mongan's suggestion that Monahans were descendants of the Menapii does not seem to help us as they seem to be DF21 and M222 - unless you have further info of his suggested surnames- and some are FGC5494.
    From your Fluxus diagram and from Alex's tree I only see one early Rhine based line for sure. I can not see that the other lines have a longer genetic distance from L21 and they could possibly be France or Isles based from the earliest times?
    So is it not just a 1 (or 2) in 7 chance (on current data) that the earliest geographical location for FGC5494 was in the Bad Durkheim.
    Forgive me if my observations are inaccurate or if I am missing/ignoring key evidence - I am a newbie to this type of analysis and would appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

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    The French archaeologist Henri Hubert believed the Beaker Folk who went to Britain came mainly from Nordrhein-Westfalen and that they left nearly lock, stock, and barrel.

    In the early days of the R L21 and Subclades Project (called the R-L21 Plus Project back then), we got a spate of new members with ancestry in the Rhineland. Most were Americans of German descent. I began to think the Rhineland was a real L21 hotspot. Then, as suddenly as it had begun to flow, the Rhine dried up for us. Since then, new members of German ancestry have been scarce.

    In 2011 the Busby paper came out and showed surprisingly low frequencies of L21 in Germany. Frankly, I was flabbergasted. I really thought the frequency of L21 would be higher there.

    So, anyway, maybe Hubert was right: lock, stock, and barrel.

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