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Thread: BritainsDNA project for Wales

  1. #11
    I have an autosomal DNA match with Eugene Griffith-McDaniel FTDNA kit No. 259187 who has the R-CTS1751 YDNA. The common ancestors are my immigrant Evan Griffith b 23 Dec 1729 and his wife, Sarah Willoughby of Fauquier Co Virginia.
    Pedigree at
    www.multiwords.de/genealogy/Gr6 Willoughby Griffith.html
    I have extensive Welsh pedigrees posted on my website that might allow tracing this line back many more generations, once we manage to get back before 1700 on it.

    The ethnic distribution in this chr 1 segment on both sides of my family is North Sea at both ends with Eastern European, East Mediterranean and Atlantic in the middle. It is hard to guess which parts are Griffith and which are Willoughby: my guess is that the NS is Norman Willoughby and the Atlantic is Celtic Griffith, but the rest is likely to be from a Hussite refugee spouse of one side or the other.

    Are any other Welsh names names showing up on the Y DNA comparison runs. These would be from uncles or nephews etc with different patronymics when the Anglo-Saxon officials tagged them.

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  3. #12
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    BritainsDNA has sent out its March newsletter which includes the following information ---

    In late September last year, we launched CymruDNAWales in partnership with S4C, the Welsh language TV channel, and Media Wales. Our goal was to attempt to discover the ancestral genome of a nation and the people of Wales responded wonderfully. We have close on 1,000 samples with more results coming in every week. It has been fascinating and our main findings so far are;

    A huge percentage of Welsh men carry the classic Celtic Y chromosome marker of R1b S145. No less that 48% have it, compared with only 15% of men in Central England, to the east of Offa’s Dyke.

    Most Welsh motherlines, the mtDNA lineages, probably come from the Ice Age Refuges on either side of the Pyrenees – more than 50%.

    Despite these large groups, Wales turns out to be genetically very diverse. We have found markers originating in Siberia, modern Iraq, modern George [sic], the Indus Valley, the Arctic Circle and Africa.

    Perhaps most striking is the fact that about 25% of all Welsh men are the descendants in the male line from only 20 patriarchs. These men were powerful, probably kings, warriors and they probably ruled over communities and kingdoms in Dark Ages Wales. This remarkable finding is a consequence of social selection, the habit of leaders having sex with many different women. It seems that social selection was popular in Wales!

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  5. #13
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    Hi, I'm new to this Forum and to the subject, so I hope you will bear with me. I recently had my DNA results from Cymru DNA. I live in South East Wales and my recent paternal ancestry on my father's side ( Howells) was just over the border in Herefordshire going back to the 1660's. My mother's maternal ancestry was also in Herefordshire ( Leominster) at least back to the 1800's. My bloodgroup is "O" which I believe is more predominant in Wales than England.
    My fatherline is R1b-S21 - Germanic ( Ru106\S21) they say "Your S11136 subtype was recently discovered using Chromo2, so its distribution is not yet understood. It belongs to the larger S380 cluster which first discovered in a Tuscan man.You may carry markers that further define your subtype, but do not yet appear on our tree. You will find these in your genetic signature." I also seem to have a small amount of Central Asian DNA which I have read may have been down to the influence of the Huns on the Germanic haplogroup. I hope to participate in further study of this group. I am guessing that my origins in the UK are most likely to be Saxon, although I understand there may be other possibilities.
    My Mother line is "J" First Farmers and my subtype is J1c1b2a which I understand arrived in Britain in the Neolithic.
    Any thoughts and advice for the novice much appreciated.I find the science difficult. Thank you. John

  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Hi, I'm new to this Forum and to the subject, so I hope you will bear with me. .... they say "Your S11136 subtype was recently discovered using Chromo2, so its distribution is not yet understood. It belongs to the larger S380 cluster which first discovered in a Tuscan man.. Any thoughts and advice for the novice much appreciated.I find the science difficult. Thank you. John
    Welcome to the forum John. You are nearly a neighbour of mine.

    The first thing to know is that different labs can use different names for the same marker. (Marker=SNP, to get into the jargon). So to find out what other names yours might have, we start with ISOGG http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

    That tells us that S380 is also known as Z326, Z329 and Z337. The first of these is in bold, so that is the most common name. So if you don't find anything about S380 when searching this forum or elsewhere online, try Z326.

    S11136 is too new to appear on the ISOGG tree, so we go to the YFull experimental tree http://yfull.com/tree/R1b/ .

    There we find this tree:
    R-Z326 (Y1410) formed 4100 ybp (years before present), TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) 3300 ybp. Samples from Tuscany (Italy), Sweden and Finland.
    >R-Y6669 formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp. Sample Finland
    >>R-S21728 S21728 * S11136 * S23955 formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2300 ybp. Sample from Belgium and one other sample.
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-05-2015 at 11:18 PM.

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamGriffithHester View Post
    I have an autosomal DNA match with Eugene Griffith-McDaniel FTDNA kit No. 259187 who has the R-CTS1751 YDNA. The common ancestors are my immigrant Evan Griffith b 23 Dec 1729 and his wife, Sarah Willoughby of Fauquier Co Virginia.
    Pedigree at
    www.multiwords.de/genealogy/Gr6 Willoughby Griffith.html
    I have extensive Welsh pedigrees posted on my website that might allow tracing this line back many more generations, once we manage to get back before 1700 on it.

    The ethnic distribution in this chr 1 segment on both sides of my family is North Sea at both ends with Eastern European, East Mediterranean and Atlantic in the middle. It is hard to guess which parts are Griffith and which are Willoughby: my guess is that the NS is Norman Willoughby and the Atlantic is Celtic Griffith, but the rest is likely to be from a Hussite refugee spouse of one side or the other.

    Are any other Welsh names names showing up on the Y DNA comparison runs. These would be from uncles or nephews etc with different patronymics when the Anglo-Saxon officials tagged them.

    Sorry I missed this post earlier. Eugene is my maternal grandfather and I manage his accounts at 23andme and FTDNA. I sent you a pending known relationship at FTDNA of 5th cousin since Evan is my grandfather's 4th great grandfather and I'm assuming that is probably the relationship. Not sure what you were looking for exactly in terms of Welsh surnames but my grandfather's 10 67 marker matches are:

    1 Allen
    2 Lewis's
    2 Brown's
    1 Scott
    2 Jones
    1 Rowberry
    1 Owens

    None have snp tested past L21, however. My grandfather does have a fellow CTS1751 match at 37 markers, also descended from Evan Griffith and Sarah Willoughby. He hasn't taken the family finder test, though.

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  10. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Welcome to the forum John. You are nearly a neighbour of mine.

    The first thing to know is that different labs can use different names for the same marker. (Marker=SNP, to get into the jargon). So to find out what other names yours might have, we start with ISOGG http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

    That tells us that S380 is also known as Z326, Z329 and Z337. The first of these is in bold, so that is the most common name. So if you don't find anything about S380 when searching this forum or elsewhere online, try Z326.

    S11136 is too new to appear on the ISOGG tree, so we go to the YFull experimental tree http://yfull.com/tree/R1b/ .

    There we find this tree:
    R-Z326 (Y1410) formed 4100 ybp (years before present), TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) 3300 ybp. Samples from Tuscany (Italy), Sweden and Finland.
    >R-Y6669 formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp. Sample Finland
    >>R-S21728 S21728 * S11136 * S23955 formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2300 ybp. Sample from Belgium and one other sample.
    For clades below R1b-U106 (including Z326 and S21728) the best source for information can be found online at: https://app.box.com/s/afqsrrnvv2d51msqcz2o
    This is the tree maintained by me for the U106 Haplogroup Project.

    In addition the R1b-U106 Haplogroup Project lists seven individuals who are S21728+.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ion=ycolorized

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  12. #17
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    Thank you all for the responses. Unfortunately I couldn't access a couple of the links provided. Trying to interpret the data is very new to me.
    My interest really is in general history and in knowing where my ancestors may have come from and when. It is obviously a complex subject. .The Welsh border with Herefordshire is quite an interesting area as at one time it was the Western Saxon frontier and during the time of the Normans was part of the Welsh Marches, with some Welsh being spoken in Herefordshire up to the 1600's I believe.
    I have read different views regarding my surname Howells , Hywel, or variations with some saying it originated in (Welsh) Brittany and another source saying there is also a Saxon origin in Lincolnshire.Then again, I suppose it may have no real relationship to my early British origins. I hope to find out more in time. Thank you for your help. John

  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    I have read different views regarding my surname Howells , Hywel, or variations with some saying it originated in (Welsh) Brittany and another source saying there is also a Saxon origin in Lincolnshire.
    The Welsh long retained the system of naming by genealogy, so when they adopted surnames, these chiefly reflected paternal names. Howells = son of Howel, Huwal, Hoel (various spellings of the name, which is from the Old Welsh Houel). It is common in the Welsh borders. Such names are also found in England where Bretons settled and some Bretons did also settle in Wales (at Monmouth) in the Norman period, just to confuse matters. The Lincolnshire surname is from the place-name Howell and I doubt very much whether it has any relevance to your family name.

    Since surnames were not used in Wales before the Tudor period and often not adopted until much later, they are not a big help in considering deeper ancestry. For example if an Anglo-Saxon man married into a Welsh border family around 900 AD and his descendants also married Welsh people, they would have Welsh names, so by around 1600 one of the line could have the name Howel, which his sons adopted as a surname. He would be just one of many men named Howel, so there would be many unrelated lineages with the same surname. Indeed we find Howells, Powell and related surnames in several different R1b subclades. The majority are not U106, though you are not the only one who is.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    My interest really is in general history and in knowing where my ancestors may have come from and when.
    With that surname and a long line of Herefordshire ancestors, it certainly looks as though the majority of your ancestors were Welsh. The direct paternal line is just one of the many lineages you carry. It sometimes does not reflect the majority of your ancestors.
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-06-2015 at 01:24 PM.

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  15. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Unfortunately I couldn't access a couple of the links provided. Trying to interpret the data is very new to me.
    It can be tricky to find your way around Family Tree DNA projects. Bear in mind that S11136 is the same as S21728. Here are the S21728+ individuals listed in the excellent U106 project mentioned above. All are the oldest known direct paternal ancestor of someone whose results are in the project:

    Z9>Z331>Z330>Z329>Z326>FGC18842>S21728>A656> FGC4453
    Benjamin Warriner, b.c. 1740, Henrico Co., VA [United States]

    Z9>Z331>Z330>Z329>Z326>FGC18842>S21728>A656>A655
    Wilhelm Voss caval cap.*≈1645 NW-Ger-† 1713 Laar [Lower Saxony, Germany]
    Hubert Joseph Glime, b. 20 Feb 1812, Émines, Namur [Belgium]

    Z9>Z331>Z330>Z329>Z326>FGC18842>S21728>PF740
    William Miller, 1752-1790, Sherborne, Dorset, UK
    David Wright, b.c. 1773; d. 1852
    Lazarus Smith (1774-1834), Chowan Co., NC [US]

    Z9>Z331>Z330>Z329>Z326>FGC18842>S21728>PF740>A312+, A310-
    William/Willie/Willis S. Jones, 1830 TN-1861 TN [US]

    Z9>Z331>Z330>Z329>Z326>FGC18842>S21728>PF740>A312>A310
    Walter Welch, b.bef 1741, Chatham Co., NC [US]

    I have highlighted two surnames of interest - Jones, which is the most common surname in Wales, and Welch - a surname meaning Welsh (i.e. foreign in Anglo-Saxon) and suggesting therefore a man of Welsh origin in England. There is a hint here that you may belong in the subclade A312, but you cannot know unless you are testing for that SNP. Hope this helps.

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  17. #20
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    Thank you very much. Your posts were helpful, My earliest known paternal ancestor identified by a researcher at Hereford Records Office was a William Howells of Ganarew right on the Herefordshire/Monmouthshire border probably born in the 1660's. John

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