View Poll Results: This is a credible explanation of an L371+ test result

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Thread: Interpretation of Y-SNP L371 (S300) result. Your opinions required please

  1. #1
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    Interpretation of Y-SNP L371 (S300) result. Your opinions required please

    L371 appears to be a rare subtype of DF13, and to date several men with Welsh surnames cary this marker.

    The following news article describes an L371 result and then gives an interpretation of this result.

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/lifestyle/showbiz/dafydd-iwan-discovers-impressive-celtic-7829517


    Quote:

    L371 is ...
    Very rare in England and Ireland, it has never been detected anywhere else in the world.

    It even seems to be rare in Wales itself and signifies Iwan‘s genetic links with ancient Welsh-speaking kings or war lords who ruled the southern counties of Britiain – from Kent through Hertfordshire, across to Somerset – during the Dark Ages and before the coming of the Anglo-Saxons.

    Post-fall of the Roman province, however, men with this marker would have been gradually driven westwards as the tide of the Saxon hordes pushed along the Thames Valley, triumphed at the Battle of Deorham and the old Roman cities of Bath, Cirencester and Gloucester fell.

    Iwan was also told, given the consequence of what geneticists call social selection – powerful men’s proclivity in the past for having children with many different women, thereby spreading their DNA much wider – that he and the ancestors who shared his marker might even be descended from a single individual.
    I would like to get your opinions as to whether the interpretation is credible. Please vote in the poll and post your comments here.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    I don't know enough about L371 to vote but I don't see why it couldn't be credible? Looking at the photo of Dafydd he looks like your typical DF13. I think it will be interesting to see what happens over the next year as more evidence comes in.

    George

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    It seems pretty clear that L371 is essentially Welsh, but I don't buy all the grandiose "kings or war lords" stuff. It seems pretty circumscribed for a SNP spread by kings or war lords.

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    The associated L371 project is https://www.familytreedna.com/public...0/default.aspx

    It is a small, predominantly Welsh cluster, but is also scattered across the UK and it has been detected in Australia. Consequently I would disagree with the assertion that "it has never been detected anywhere else in the world." The assertion that it is specifically attributable to a line of ancient welsh kings or war lords is also quizzical, and smells of the usual P.R. antics of the Rector Moffat.

  5. #5
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    Lots of views but only 2 votes??
    Voting is anonymous, so don't hold back!

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    The project really needs to have the "Paternal Ancestor Name" field shown and the "Maps" functionality turned on as it is very difficult to speculate on L371 with a limited knowledge of Welsh surnames. The genetic distances do look large enough to make this marker somewhat old, certainly pre-Anglo Saxon times. Perhaps a specific sub-cluster could some day be thought of as "royal", but I don't see anything that points to that in the FTDNA project. Perhaps BritainsDNA has many more samples that point in that direction, but since they no longer offer STR results, I don't think it would help.

    So, I am voting "No". If the wording was something along the lines of "pre-Roman Celtic clan leader", I think I likely would have voted "Yes".
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
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    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    After first reading the article, I struggled with the word "credible". The article could be stating truths and I generally give the benefit of the doubt to anyone studying their genealogies as I assume they are the subject matter experts in their own families, where as I am not.

    However, after I clicked on the links and read what I could and changed my hand. I just don't see the affirmative evidence presented. On the other hand, the math is at a 4% NPE (when the father thinks he is the biological father) per generation, the odds of lineages having fidelity to a pedigree go do down significantly. The triangulation of several very old and reliable geneleagies with aligned gene testing are needed to reduce the accumulated odds of the NPE. I don't see where they've done it.

    To become credible, I will have to see that kind of triangulation.

    BTW, since I fancy myself with a Welsh origin according family legacy and some genetic matches in the Glamorgan area, I will add commentary off tangent slightly but for illustration.

    I have an early 19th century book written based on an accumulation of materials from an a prior Irish priest was really passionate about Walsh genealogies and history in Ireland. There are several pedigrees going back to Cambro-Norman Invasion period. That's the problem. I have a choice of pedigrees and they pedigrees disagree with each other. I really don't have much reason to think any of them are right so I don't! I only attempt to speculate on which might have some approximation of what happened based on how genetic data and any other I can get support each other.

    Which leads me to one of my options which I just don't see with any credibility. That lineage goes back to King Arthur. The only approximation of any type I could come up with my association with the Glamorgan area is the number "twelve" as the conqueror of Glamorgan is Robert Fitzhamon and his twelve knights which could be construed by a drinking man as something to do with or representative of Arthur's twelve knights of the round table.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fitzhamon
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_...s_of_Glamorgan

    I'm L371- so King Arthur, or some facsimile, can't be my ancestor and his.

    Well, so much for that.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-27-2014 at 04:53 PM.

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    Puzzling project: lots of strange odds and ends and different subclades.

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  12. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...0/default.aspx


    Puzzling project: lots of strange odds and ends and different subclades.
    What are the 17,14,10 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Chandler View Post
    What are the 17,14,10 ?
    DYS448=17, DYS456=14, DYS450=10

    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ons/topics/782
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ection=results

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