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Thread: age of J2a in Europe, origin J2a-L26

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    age of J2a in Europe, origin J2a-L26

    No J2a in pre-antiquity Europe?
    Recently I posted about some thoughts I have about a revised J2a origin: Ancient Y-DNA discussion: no J2a in pre-antiquity Europe? Note that this is mainly based on a few ancient European Y-DNA results, combined with the known modern phylogeny and distribution and as well some archaeological facts. I know other conclusions can be made and I'm interested on alternative interpretations of the known facts. Main conclusions (for more see the link):
    • G2a possibly with some other G and E subgroups are the oldest surviving Levantine Haplogroups.
    • J2a did not reach the Eastern Mediterranean area before the Bronze Age (3,300 BC), maybe even not before the Iron Age (1,200 BC)
    • J2a-L26 was somewhere in or near the Iranian plateau. His Y-ancestors probably came from the South (Gulf Oasis) or another refugium nearby.
    Particularly interested in: DNA/Admixture from Historical Tyrol, Central Alps and related/connected populations; Y-DNA J2a-M67-L210, J2a-PF5197-PF5169, R1a-M17, R1b-U106-Z372; mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d2-A11884G, U5a2b2-G10685A, U5b1b1-b-T16192C! Projects: Hidden Content , Hidden Content , J2a-PF5197, ISOGG Wiki, GenWiki (german)

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  3. #2
    J Man
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    This is truly a good topic to discuss Chris. As we all know so far no J2a has been found in pre-antiquity Europe. Indeed none has even been found among the numerous Neolithic samples that have been tested from Europe so far. The Y-DNA haplogroup that by far dominates the ancient European Neolithic farmers is G2a. The fact that now J2 has been found among them (yet) is rather surprising. Many now think that J2a spread out from Anatolia or the Trans-Caucasus area during the Bronze Age mainly. I still would not discount the possibility of some J2a being found among Neolithic farmer remains from the East Mediterranean region though. We need more ancient DNA.

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    The new study on ancient Hungarians titled Genome flux and stasis in a five millennium transect of European prehistory by Gamba et al has a J2a1 specimen from the Bronze Age. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...comms6257.html The specimen is called BR2. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...ms6257_T1.html

    Felix Chandrakumar processed the raw data and he found it to be positive for J-M67 (or J2a1b as per ISOGG tree). His post along with a link to the processed raw data is available at http://www.fc.id.au/2014/10/ancient-...y-dna-and.html Maybe you guys can find another SNP that the specimen is positive for below M67. I looked at a couple that are on the YFull tree at http://www.yfull.com/tree/J2a1b/ and the specimen was negative for those. I didn't have time to look through the others. If a positive SNP can be found then it could help refine that part of the tree.

    In the PCA the BR1 and BR2 specimens cluster with modern French and Orcadian but not far from modern Hungarians.

    Attachment 2812

    Eurogenes has put BR1 on a PCA and it is also closest to French and British. He labeled it BA_Hungary in the PCA.
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/1...hungarian.html

    There is also an ADMIXTURE plot that is shown in the At a glance figures but that ADMIXTURE plot isn't identical to the one in the Supplementary PDF at http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...ry-information so it is hard to tell which k=4 components they had or didn't have. Once Felix is done processing the DNA and has uploaded the results to Gedmatch I think we will have a better idea.
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 10-27-2014 at 04:45 PM.

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    J Man
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    ^Yes thank you there are a number of people working on finding the terminal SNP for BR2 right now. It is interesting to note that the first J2a sample to be found in Europe comes from the Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    ^Yes thank you there are a number of people working on finding the terminal SNP for BR2 right now.
    Is there a discussion somewhere about what has been found?

    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    It is interesting to note that the first J2a sample to be found in Europe comes from the Bronze Age.
    I had noticed that and that you had already stated in this same thread that "Many now think that J2a spread out from Anatolia or the Trans-Caucasus area during the Bronze Age mainly" even before the paper was published. So this study seems to support that it spread to Europe during the Bronze Age. It's also interesting that western Europeans must have a lot of Bronze Age autosomal DNA since they are so similar to BR1 and BR2.

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    J Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    Is there a discussion somewhere about what has been found?


    I had noticed that and that you had already stated in this same thread that "Many now think that J2a spread out from Anatolia or the Trans-Caucasus area during the Bronze Age mainly" even before the paper was published. So this study seems to support that it spread to Europe during the Bronze Age. It's also interesting that western Europeans must have a lot of Bronze Age autosomal DNA since they are so similar to BR1 and BR2.
    Well modern day Western Europeans certainly are quite similar overall genetically to both BR1 and BR2. It is interesting to see that even though BR2 is part of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a1 he is very West European like overall genetically. It does not seem that his immediate ancestors came right from Anatolia or the Near East to Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    It does not seem that his immediate ancestors came right from Anatolia or the Near East to Europe.
    I haven't kept up enough with the ANE, WHG, EEF and so on of ancient and modern populations to have an opinion either way. It would help if we had Anatolian and Near East specimens from the Mesolithic, Neolithic, Copper, Bronze, and Iron Age to be able to have definitive not inferred data.

  14. #8
    J Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    I haven't kept up enough with the ANE, WHG, EEF and so on of ancient and modern populations to have an opinion either way. It would help if we had Anatolian and Near East specimens from the Mesolithic, Neolithic, Copper, Bronze, and Iron Age to be able to have definitive not inferred data.
    Yes we have to wait for ancient specimens from Anatolia and the Near East to know for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    Felix Chandrakumar processed the raw data and he found it to be positive for J-M67 (or J2a1b as per ISOGG tree). His post along with a link to the processed raw data is available at http://www.fc.id.au/2014/10/ancient-...y-dna-and.html Maybe you guys can find another SNP that the specimen is positive for below M67...
    Appears to be a European clade of J2a.
    Magoon et. al.

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    Thanks. The Tuscan, Iberian, and Puerto Rican matches are interesting. I know some Mexicans that are M67.

    There are new posts by Ted Kandell on Felix's site:

    "Here is a detailed analysis of the Y-DNA SNPs and STRs for this sample BR2. BR2 is a new Y-DNA subclade under J2a-CTS900*, and shares 42 SNPs with a 1000 Genomes Puerto Rican, HG01402. Both the SNPs and the STRs indicate that BR2 is in a new CTS6804- subclade which includes Georgians, Armenians, a North Italian, and Hispanics.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...haring "

    It seems that Bronze Age Anatolians made their way to Southern Spain in search of copper for bronze, and then went northward into Central Europe seeking new sources of copper . Here's a photo of the BR2 grave site: http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncsta...1&tl=1 "

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