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Thread: Arabic Race, how old are they?

  1. #1
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    Arabic Race, how old are they?

    I have read many post on the origins of the arabic race and all seem to hover around ~800BC.
    I find this very strange that this race never moved north or west until very late in time.

    there seems to be two original tribes only, the :
    The Thamūd (Arabic: ثمود) is the name of an ancient civilization in Hejaz who were known from the 1st millennium BC to near the time of Muhammad. The Thamud civilization was located in Saudi Arabia. Although they are thought to have originated in Southern Arabia, Arabic tradition has them moving north to settle on the slopes of Mount Athlab near Mada'in Saleh.
    The oldest known reference to Thamud is a 715 BC inscription of the Assyrian king Sargon II which mentions them as being among the people of eastern and central Arabia subjugated by the Assyrians.[2]
    They are referred to as "Tamudaei" in the writings of Aristo of Chios, Ptolemy, and Pliny.[3]


    and the other

    The ʿĀd are thought to have lived in what is now eastern Yemen and western Oman, running from the Arabian Sea up into the Dhofar Mountains and to the edge of the Rub' al Khali. Some speculate that this was the first site of camel domestication.[1] Ubar, located in ʿĀd, was a major transshipment point for ancient frankincense trade.

    are they mostly J1 in ydna and also semitic in tongue? ...........

    If J1 , is yemen or southern Arabian peninsula the origin of this marker.?

    Clearly , the berbers in NW Africa where never arabic originally and neither where the liby-Phoenicians


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    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I have read many post on the origins of the arabic race and all seem to hover around ~800BC. I find this very strange that this race never moved north or west until very late in time.
    There is no such thing as an "arabic race." People with Arabic names begin to appear in the Neo-Assyrian prosopography during the 1st millennium BCE.

    From The Prosopography of the Neo-Assyrian Empire (Karen Radner)


    Numerous languages are represented in the Neo-Assyrian onomastic material. While the majority of the names are Akkadian (Assyrian and Babylonian), names from other Semitic languages represent another large part of the onomasticon: the Northwest Semitic names, i.e. Aramaic, Phoenician, Moabite and Hebrew, dominate but there are also a number of Arabic names. Surprisingly, many Egyptian names are attested in Assyria proper, especially in the 7th century material from Assur. Some of the earliest attestations for Iranian names are found in the Neo-Assyrian sources. Hurrian, Urartian, Anatolian and Elamite names are also known, as well as a number of Greek names.

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    I have no doubt at all that the first Arabs would have been dominated by Y-DNA haplogroup J1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I have read many post on the origins of the arabic race and all seem to hover around ~800BC.yo

    are they mostly J1 in ydna and also semitic in tongue? ...........

    If J1 , is yemen or southern Arabian peninsula the origin of this marker.?
    Shem (in Arabic Sam) was the son of Noah. He is said to be the father of Semitic peoples. His son was Arphaxad - his son was Salah (Shalekh) - his son was Eber (in Arabic 'Aber). Some say Eber was the father of what was then Hebrew peoples (forget Ashkenazim who are rather Europeans) who might have included many ancient peoples. Eber's sons were Peleg (Phalekh) and Joktan (Qahtan). Qahtan is believed to have been the father or all original Arab peoples predominantly settled in the southern Arab peninsula, especially in Yemen.

    From Eber's other son Peleg, his great great great grand son was Abraham (in Arabic Ibrahim) was living in Mesopotamia. Abraham's grandson Jacob (Israel) from Isaac was the father of the sons of Israel. Abraham's son Ishmael lived in Mecca and most likely married Arab wives from Joktan's tribes. So they were Arabized. Ishmael's descendant Adnan is known as the father of Adnani Arabs also known as Northern Arabs. Arab historians divide Arabs into two major groups before any further divisions - Adnani Arabs and Qahtani Arabs.

    Abraham's haplogroup is belived to have been J1c3d. So must be the real sons of Israel and Adnani Arabs. Since Abraham's great great great great grand father was also a father of Qahtani Arabs then all original Arabs must be if not J1c3d then at least J1. In my view all nowadays so called Arabs who are not J1 must have joined Arab tribes in ancient times and got Arabized linguistically and culturally.

    Abraham lived about 2000-2300 BC and Qahtan probably lived about 3000 BC. Note that during that time people used to live much longer. Abraham begot his first son at the age of 86, his second son at 99 and many more after the age of 100. Noah lived 950+ years. Also I suppose the mentioned historical personalities were the most notable and noble figures so they remained well known in history. They must have had more brothers and therefore more tribes not that well known... So Arab peoples might be about 5000 years old.
    Last edited by zulkif; 10-17-2014 at 01:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zulkif View Post
    (forget Ashkenazim who are rather Europeans) .
    What do you mean just forget them? Does this mean modern Middle-Eastern people are unchanged monolithic entities for 5000 years? This may justify your internal expansionist tendencies but it doesn't make it true.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    What do you mean just forget them? Does this mean modern Middle-Eastern people are unchanged monolithic entities for 5000 years? This may justify your internal expansionist tendencies but it doesn't make it true.
    I mean not to automatically associate Ashkenazim with those ancient peoples. I mentioned just Ashkenazim as they are the majority of the modern so called Hebrew people pretending to be a progeny of Israel. History and genetic results show how mixed they are, having J1 about 20% only, all the rest Y DNA lineages are not Israel's descendants even though they might have autosomal and maternal DNA from the children of Israel... Anyway, I put it in brackets as it was just not to get confused.
    Last edited by zulkif; 10-17-2014 at 06:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    I have no doubt at all that the first Arabs would have been dominated by Y-DNA haplogroup J1.
    maybe humanist is correct as link below states otherwise for a J1 arabic marker
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jo...igins_Timeline


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    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

  11. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    maybe humanist is correct as link below states otherwise for a J1 arabic marker
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jo...igins_Timeline
    I still believe that the first Arabs were dominated by Y-DNA haplogroup J1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    There is no such thing as an "arabic race."
    Further to the above correct point, objectively speaking, Arabic-speaking people may be considered either an ethnicity or a pan-ethnicity, with the two terms differing only in terms of the extent to which cultural, religious and/or genetic heritage is shared. I'd tend towards the latter given the higher degrees of cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity from the ideas of what an "ethnicity" normally denote I'm familiar with, but that's simply my opinion.

    "Race" is itself a problematic term due to its' highly variable interpretation and degree of associated emotional charge. As I understand it, the invocation of "race" with wildly different meanings (referring to some particular aspect of humanity which may be defined) was a frequent practice in the early 20th century. Nobody today would, for instance, make the case for a "British race" (aside from the more xenophobic amongst us) despite the notion being commonplace in the past. It is 2014. Our ideas have (hopefully) moved on from those more rudimentary times.

    Either the notion Arabs are a "race" is incorrect, or the ambiguity coinciding with that archaism leads the discussion itself to become ambiguous.

    On that basis and irrespective of the choice, together with our observance of rule 3.10 ("certain standards of quality control will be enforced..."), this thread will be closed shortly. You are more than welcome to open another thread on this topic on the grounds the question uses more specific and current wording (Origins and dating of Y-DNA J1? Origins and approximate age of the Arabic language? Formative steps in the development towards modern Arabic culture shared among Arabic speakers? etc.)

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