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Thread: Ancient Celt from Hinxton DF21+ Z246+

  1. #171
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    Much of the Tara myth has been discredited, so my first reaction was doubt. But other things may align, including the possible association of various DF21+ clusters with the Cruithne, e.g. O'More and O'Lalor from the Seven Septs of Laois; O'Connor, Curtin, Loydan & O'Loughlin from the Clan Corc Dosethe all identify themselves as part of the Clanna Rory. And Tara, while not ruled by the High Kings, a later invention who merely ruled part of Connaught then, was indeed Cruithne territory in early times.

    In saying that, I also have to acknowledge that other DF21+ clusters were artificially attached to the pedigrees of the ruling provincial dynasties. It is hard to unravel the fabrications. I have worked through other possibilities and had to discard them. The Cruithne remain "persons of interest". How do you see your clan, who have DF21+ members, as fitting into this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by omaolchonaire View Post
    Eugene O'Curry noted cruit means a form, and Cruithne/Cruitneach means 'formed one' or tattooed person. He also stated that the O'Carrolls of Elie descended "from the British, or Pictish, Kings of Tara".
    My understanding is that cruit is also cognate with "create" and that the tribe might equally have adopted the name of the being they saw as their creator, just as many other tribes also bore names of religious significance. Not that I wouldoverrule a respected authority like O'Curry. Many historians now appear to agree with O'Curry that the Cruithne, not the Connachta offshoot that became the Ui Niall, were the kings of Tara.

  3. #173
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    Sorry missed your response

    Quote Originally Posted by Rory Cain View Post
    Much of the Tara myth has been discredited, so my first reaction was doubt. But other things may align, including the possible association of various DF21+ clusters with the Cruithne, e.g. O'More and O'Lalor from the Seven Septs of Laois; O'Connor, Curtin, Loydan & O'Loughlin from the Clan Corc Dosethe all identify themselves as part of the Clanna Rory. And Tara, while not ruled by the High Kings, a later invention who merely ruled part of Connaught then, was indeed Cruithne territory in early times.

    In saying that, I also have to acknowledge that other DF21+ clusters were artificially attached to the pedigrees of the ruling provincial dynasties. It is hard to unravel the fabrications. I have worked through other possibilities and had to discard them. The Cruithne remain "persons of interest". How do you see your clan, who have DF21+ members, as fitting into this?
    Hey sorry Rory, haven't been on this forum.

    The first historical person the O'Maolchonaires descend from is Máiné, King of South Teffia at the time of Saint Patrick. There are about seven different kinds of Conroys and about 3-4 are potentials for DF-21 based on their location. Saint Patrick prophesised that no High Kings would descend from Máiné, but that there would be no High King that did not have one of his descendants at his side after Máiné granted him Ardagh, which became the see of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise. So we see Bec mac Dé was chief poet to Diarmuit mac Cearbhaill, and, at a much later date, Flaithrí Ó Maolchonaire accompanied the Ulster army in their march down to the disaster at Kinsale after landing with the wrecked Spanish Armada, and then accompanying Aodh Ruadh O'Donnell as the Irish ambassadors following that catastrophe. I would suspect this is why our pedigree was attached to that of the Southern Uí Néill, but also we obviously share a common ancestor with the Mac Curtíns and co-relatives. Their pedigree seems to be the one that matches the DNA with the Seven Septs of Laois. Furthermore the spread of ogham monuments seems to coincide quite nicely with the spread of the sons of Fergus mac Roich and Queen Medb.

    At this point I am quite convinced of my theory, it is who this Máiné was that puzzles me. Alice Stopford Greene believed he was a brother of Niall's, and it is possible they shared the same mother. I personally think he could be the son of Crimthainn Mór mac Fidaig or some other character of the day.

  4. #174
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    The earliest sources call Máiné a kinsman of Niall's, not a son.

  5. #175
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    I noticed something today. All the different branches of DF-21 diverge about 4000 years ago. Of five major branches we have the descendants of Corc mac Fergus along with the Ulaidh/Dal nAraidhe/Elie Carroll in the one. The descendants of Ciar mac Fergus in the other. The descendants of Conmac mac Fergus in the other. And the descendants of Conall Cearnach in the other. The only other major group are Clan Colla.

    These five individuals were three triplets, though one of them seems to have retained their original SNP as their father's uncle Conchobar, and the other two each developed a new SNP, (if that is even possible, not sure !) as well as Conall Cearnach, who was likely a near relative, his father was a poet in the Court of King Conchobar.

    Rath Medb at Tara is generally attached to Medb Lethderg, however her personage is associated with Kings like Art mac Cuinn, and definitely not with the timeframe of its construction, 2000 - 1500 BC. However that time does fit nicely with Meadbh Queen of Connacht being alive in 2000 BC when DF-21 split into its various branches.

    On the Máiné front, it would seem the Tinneys who are S-5488 but not L-1336 are the family of Fox, or an tSionnach, who were the principal Chieftains claiming descent from Máiné and holding his domain of South Teffia. More interestingly, it turns out what is believed to be his body was dug up at a place called "King Mane's Fort" at Ardagh in Longford in 1967 and is at the Irish Archives. Trying to get the remains tested

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