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Thread: Tumbleweed hypothesis on settlement in Ireland, Britons and L21

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    Tumbleweed hypothesis on settlement in Ireland, Britons and L21

    this defies everything you ever knew about Ireland and the irish. it has long been thought that the conflict between the southern irish and northern irish revolved around the south's claim that the majority of its people are indigenous gaels and that the north was invaded by non-indigenous british protestants during the plantations of Ireland. well, genetics has proven the exact opposite to be true. it turns out that gaelic raiders took welsh Christians to Ireland as slaves and that those slaves populated the majority of southern Ireland (yes, I said that the majority of southern Ireland is welsh, not gaelic). a Briton named saint Patrick was one of those slaves. in the second and third links that I posted, you can see a clear migration path from the east coast of ireland where the welsh were taken to the other regions of ireland further inland. there is some gaelic DNA in the south and along the west coast of Ireland, but it represents a smaller percentage of the DNA in southern Ireland overall.


    "Declán is one of four Munster saints who had Lives written for them claiming that they founded monasteries and preached the Gospel in Munster before their younger contemporary St Patrick ever set foot in Ireland. These bishop saints, known since the 17th century as quattuor sanctissimi episcopi, also included Ailbe of Emly, Ciarán of Saigir and Abbán of Moyarney. The same claim was apparently made for Íbar of Beggery Island, according to the Life of St Abbán, which identifies him as Abbán's uncle and teacher, but no separate Life survives which offers any information to this effect.[11][12] The relevant Lives are all found in the so-called Dublin Collection (see above), which bears a stamp of editorial intervention.[13]

    Their testimony, late though it seems, has often been treated in relation to the historical question of pre-Patrician Christianity in the south of Ireland. It has been argued that before the coming of Patrick, the south coast of Munster would have provided the most likely point of entry for the introduction of Christianity via Britain or via Gaul. The settlements of the Déisi and the Uí Liatháin in southwest Wales, as evidenced by the distribution of ogam-stones, provided an important connection between Britain and Ireland.[14] A key aspect of this overseas link, the import of slaves, usually British Christians, by Irish raiders would have directly exposed Munster to the influence of Christianity."


    • Ó Cathasaigh, Tomás (1984). "The Déisi and Dyfed." Éigse 20. pp. 1-33.
    • Ó Riain-Raedel, Dagmar (1998). "The Question of the 'Pre-Patrician' Saints of Munster." In
    Early Medieval Munster. Archaelogy, History and Society, ed. M.A. Monk and J. Sheehan.
    Cork. 17-22.


    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...isi.Laigin.jpg

    http://www.irishorigenes.com/sites/d...20Ireland2.jpg

    http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73...db63896102.jpg

    http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/or...3aa4e37411.jpg



    EARLY USE OF LETTERS, OGAM AND ROMAN
    “We now come to the question, When and where did the Irish
    get their alphabet, and at what time did they begin to practice
    the art of writing? The present alphabet of the Irish, which
    they have used in all their books from the seventh century
    down, and probably for three hundred years before that, is only
    a modification — and a peculiarly beautiful one— of the Roman
    letters. This alphabet they no doubt borrowed from their
    neighbours, the Romanized Britons, within whose territory
    they had established themselves, and with whom — now in
    peace, now in war — they carried on a vigorous and constant
    intercourse. The general use of letters in Ireland is, how-
    ever, to be attributed to the early Christian missionaries.

    But there is no reason to believe that it was St. Patrick, or
    indeed any missionary, who first introduced them. There
    probably were in Ireland many persons in the fourth century,
    or perhaps even earlier, who were acquainted with the art of
    writing. Already, at the beginning of the third century at
    least, says Zimmer in his '* Keltische Studien," British
    missionaries were at work in the south of Ireland. Bede, in
    his history, says distinctly that Palladius was sent from Rome
    in the year 431 to the Irish "who believed in Christ " — **ad
    Scottos in Christum credentes." Already, at the close of the
    third century, there was an organized British episcopate, and
    three British bishops attended the Council of Arles held in
    314. It is quite impossible that the numerous Irish colonies
    settled in the south of England and in Wales could have failed to
    come into contact with this organized Church, and even to have
    been influenced by it. The account in the Acta Sanctorum, of
    Declan, Bishop of Waterford, said to have been born in 347, and
    of Ailbe, another southern bishop, who met St. Patrick, may be
    looked upon as perfectly true in so far as it relates to the actual
    existence of these pre-Patrician bishops.”--Douglas Hyde: 'A
    Literary History of Ireland,' pages 105, 106
    Last edited by Tumbleweed; 10-31-2014 at 12:48 PM.

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    It is entirely possible that the introduction of roman catholicism to ireland was the result of a dynastic struggle between a gaelic high king of Connacht (Turlough O'Conor) and a briton whose ancestors introduced celtic christianity to ireland as slaves of the gaels. If that is the case, then you can be sure that god may have played a part by making british ireland a roman catholic thorn in the side of its gaelic slave masters. If dermot macmurrough was a briton, then certainly he would have felt a kinship with his countrymen in wales. He would have known that the english nation came into being as a result of the gaelic and pictish invasions of britain, and he would have felt comfortable reaching out for support from a french roman catholic king of britain named henry II, so that he [dermot] could reclaim his own kingship over leinster and possibly over all of Ireland. As a briton who was descended from christian slaves, he wouldn't have felt guilt or shame as a traitor by doing to ireland what ireland had done to his country. Please keep in mind that in dermont's day, the ancient british celtic church had almost been entirely replaced by the roman catholicism of the anglo-saxons and normans. Any briton in ireland with knowledge of that must have considered the betrayal of britain to be more shameful than anything that they could have done to those who had initially invaded and settled there, which in turn resulted in more invasions of britain and the introduction of roman catholicism there. at any rate, the genetic record, archaeology and history all seems to be pointing in that direction.

    this british DNA clade is even associated with Dermot macmurrough:

    "R-P312-4f (R-L159.2). This subclade within R-L21 is defined by the presence of the marker L159 and is known as L159.2 because of a parallel mutation that also exists inside haplogroup I2a1 (L159.1). L159.2 appears to be associated with the Kings of Leinster and Diarmait Mac Murchada."

    http://adamsfamilydna.com/2013/05/15...59-2-mutation/

    "There are theories and speculation that our origin lay with the Damnonii of Ptolemy’s Geographica. There were three main area’s occupied by these peoples -

    1.Domnainn or Fir Domnann of Leinster Ireland
    2.The Dumnonii of Scotland – William Skene, the Scottish antiquarian, also mentioned the Domnonii of Scotland: “…the great nation of the Domnonii lay north of the Selgovae and Novantae, separated from them by the chain of hills which divides the northern rivers from the waters which flow into the Solway, extending as far north as the Tay. South of the Forth of Clyde they possessed the modern counties of Ayr, Lanark, and Renfrew, and, north of these estuaries, the counties of Dumbaton and Stirling and the districts of Menteith, Stratherne, and Fothreve, or the western half of the peninsula of fife. They thus lay in the centre of Scotland, and were the novae gentes whose territory Agricola ravaged.”
    3.Domnonii of Wales and Cornwall. From, “Celtic Scotland, the Picts, The Scots & the Welsh of Southern Scotland.” by H.M. Chadwick: “In Ptolemy’s map four peoples are located in the south of Scotland. The points of the compass are erroneously stated (cf. p. 72); but it is clear that he means to place the Noouantai in Galloway and perhaps Dumfries, and the Uotadinoi (written Otalinoi?) on the east side, between the Forth and the Tyne. The Selgouai lie between these two peoples, and the Dumnonioi (miswritten Damnioi, Damnonioi) north of the Selgouai, extending apparently from Ayshire into Perthshire. All these peoples are usually assumed to be British. But only one of them survived in later times – the Votadini, known as Guotodin, Gododdin, in early Welsh poetry. The Dumnonioi were presumably of the same stock as their namesakes in Devon and Cornwall (cf. Chapter v above). The latter were certainly British in later times; so it is inferred that the northern Dumnonioi were likewise British. But, as we have seen, another branch of the same stock is found in Ireland – the Domnainn or Fir Domnann of Leinster – and it is apparently nowhere suggested that they spoke any language but Irish“
    Last edited by Tumbleweed; 10-31-2014 at 12:50 PM.

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    I'm not an expert on Irish history or prehistory, but, I'm sorry, I don't see any evidence that convinces me that "the majority of southern Ireland is welsh, not gaelic" [sic].

    Undoubtedly there were British slaves in Ireland (obviously, St. Patrick was one), but leaping from that to "the majority of southern Ireland is welsh, not gaelic" [sic] is quite a feat.

    The maps you posted show nothing of the kind, despite Irishorigenes labeling part of the map of Ireland "Brythonic" (which I find dubious at best).

    The Irish themselves settled in Wales and SW Britain during the late Roman Period and in the post Roman Period, but never in all my fairly extensive reading on that era have I ever encountered the claim that there was massive transport of British slaves to Ireland, so large it amounted to population replacement. How did the Gaelic language ever survive?

    I smell some sort of agenda, with very little substance to support it.
    Last edited by rms2; 10-31-2014 at 12:16 PM.

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    obviously the gaels wouldn't have needed to transport a huge number of welsh to Ireland in order for Ireland to be populated by them. anyone with half a brain cell in their heads must know that the populations of Britain and Ireland were considerably smaller in the third through fifth centuries AD than they are today. it just doesn't take long for a small number of slaves to pro-create into a large number of people over almost two millennia. as for the gaelic language, it probably didn't die out in the eastern and central regions of Ireland where the welsh were taken because the welsh were forced to speak gaelic early on, before assimilating with and eventually replacing their laigin slave masters. the archaeological, historical and genetic proof is on my side on this one.
    Last edited by Tumbleweed; 11-01-2014 at 04:10 AM.

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    The maps you posted show nothing of the kind, despite Irishorigenes labeling part of the map of Ireland "Brythonic" (which I find dubious at best).

    I smell some sort of agenda, with very little substance to support it.[/QUOTE]

    those maps that I posted show the percentages of Y DNA that are distinctly gaelic in Ireland. now, there are some other clades of R1b L21 that are common in Ireland in equal or lesser percentages than are found in England and wales, but the fact that they are found as much if not more in England and wales than in Ireland makes them less distinct as being gaelic in origin.
    Last edited by Tumbleweed; 11-01-2014 at 04:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I'm not an expert on Irish history or prehistory, but, I'm sorry, I don't see any evidence that convinces me that "the majority of southern Ireland is welsh, not gaelic" [sic].

    Undoubtedly there were British slaves in Ireland (obviously, St. Patrick was one), but leaping from that to "the majority of southern Ireland is welsh, not gaelic" [sic] is quite a feat.

    The maps you posted show nothing of the kind, despite Irishorigenes labeling part of the map of Ireland "Brythonic" (which I find dubious at best).

    The Irish themselves settled in Wales and SW Britain during the late Roman Period and in the post Roman Period, but never in all my fairly extensive reading on that era have I ever encountered the claim that there was massive transport of British slaves to Ireland, so large it amounted to population replacement. How did the Gaelic language ever survive?

    I smell some sort of agenda, with very little substance to support it.
    let me put it to you like this: the reason that a lot of irish people look really celtic is that they are more british than the English and scots. I'm not trying to feed people some kind of slant here. i assume that there has been a lot of transparency between the roman catholic and protestant divide in regard to whose DNA got tested and how those tests were administered, but archaeology, genetics and history all form a very solid body of proof concerning this.

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    What has Northern Ireland an entity that came into existence in 1922 (and by way doesn't include the most northern point of island of Ireland -- which is in "the south") got to do with early medieval Irish history. I'm confused!
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    Apologies to those of sensitive sensibilities, but this sums up the last couple of posts for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    What has Northern Ireland an entity that came into existence in 1922 (and by way doesn't include the most northern point of island of Ireland -- which is in "the south") got to do with early medieval Irish history. I'm confused!
    if the guy who owns you is giving you a run for your money, then someone has got to be your king, whether protestant or catholic.

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    don't let the brit fan club sing your praises too loud... someone might hear us!

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