Page 1 of 291 1231151101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 4410

Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom

    Waves of migration into South Asia

    Razib Khan has made an interesting observation: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/ancestral-no...out-the-world/

    He concludes:

    Everything I’ve seen suggests that there were two movements into South Asia from the north/west. The Brahui/Baloch are very distinctive in comparison to the Kalash/Pathan/Burusho. This might be a function of continuous gene flow from distinct regions to the west as well, especially in the case of the Brahui/Baloch, who have had associations as far afield as Oman due to their geographic proximity.

  2. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Angoliga (06-27-2016),  ArnoldNeck (01-21-2018),  bmoney (11-13-2017),  GailT (08-28-2020),  Hando (11-27-2014),  Jessie (04-30-2015),  Mehrdad (11-11-2014),  NK19191 (11-11-2014),  volk_zargos (11-16-2017)

  3. #2
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Here is my messy attempt to fit South Asians onto the Lazaridis 2014 diagram for Europeans.

    LazTree.JPG

    Explanation: the South Asian population is very complex. It is a huge area that has attracted numerous inward migrations, including some from East Asia that I do not show, as they are distinct from the simple ASI/ANI model of Reich et al. 2009.

    What I attempt to show is:

    1. ASI: a migration from Africa via India to Australia, maybe 30-40 ka earlier than the next out-of-Africa migration.
    2. Palaeolithic: mtDNA haplogroup U2 (at least) from the next dispersal out of Africa. Component in Dravidian-speakers?
    3. Neolithic: migration of farmers from Iran to Indus valley. Ancestors IVC. Most likely Y-DNA J included. Language now dead, as absorbed by incoming IE. [Note: rice-farming input from east is not shown on diagram, simply to avoid creating even more mess on a chart not meant for South Asia]
    4. Indic: migration from region of BMAC, which had been taken over by Andronovo-Tazabagyab people. The mixture of IE and the language of the BMAC seems to have produced ancestral Indic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria...ogical_Complex


    Later inward migrations included
    1. Scythians (whom we can expect to bring more of the Yamnaya mixture, plus a bit of East Asian) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians
    2. Arabian
    3. Muslim conquests on the Indian subcontinent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_...n_subcontinent


    I'm sure experts on South Asia can improve on this.

  4. The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     bored (11-15-2014),  Deftextra (12-31-2015),  DMXX (11-11-2014),  everest59 (11-12-2014),  GailT (08-28-2020),  gyanwali (11-25-2017),  Hando (11-27-2014),  Jessie (04-30-2015),  jesus (11-11-2014),  K33 (08-23-2017),  Mehrdad (11-11-2014),  MonkeyDLuffy (05-02-2015),  NK19191 (11-13-2014),  okarinaofsteiner (04-14-2018),  Tomenable (08-02-2015),  volk_zargos (11-16-2017)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    944
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2a1

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    [*]Palaeolithic: mtDNA haplogroup U2 (at least) from the next dispersal out of Africa. Component in Dravidian-speakers?
    U2a, U2b and U2c are primarily found in the sub-continent and are extremely old and extremely rare in GenBank.

    We need a larger sample size from India, Pakistan, Tibet etc to understand the current frequency and geographic distribution of these groups. It should be possible to identify some of these using HVR results, but I don't know of any studies that have published mtDNA results (either HVR or FMS) for large population studies from these regions. This is a case where I think we could still learn quite a bit by looking at modern populations.

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to GailT For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-02-2014),  Jean M (11-11-2014),  parasar (11-11-2014),  redifflal (11-11-2014)

  7. #4
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,971
    Sex
    Location
    US
    Ethnicity
    India Andhra Kamma Telugu
    Nationality
    US
    Y-DNA (P)
    HM82 Z5890+CTS8144+
    mtDNA (M)
    U2a1a
    Y-DNA (M)
    HM69

    United States of America India
    Quote Originally Posted by GailT View Post
    U2a, U2b and U2c are primarily found in the sub-continent and are extremely old and extremely rare in GenBank.

    We need a larger sample size from India, Pakistan, Tibet etc to understand the current frequency and geographic distribution of these groups. It should be possible to identify some of these using HVR results, but I don't know of any studies that have published mtDNA results (either HVR or FMS) for large population studies from these regions. This is a case where I think we could still learn quite a bit by looking at modern populations.
    What about big connection between Hungarian bronze age samples and Some soldier castes in India and South Asia ?



    For example on BR2, Hungary, 3.2ky sample, I am getting following nearness in GEd

    Largest segment = 4.6 cM
    Total of segments > 1 cM = 751.9 cM
    505 matching segments

    Significant other hits in Bronze age samples. Does it indicate Bronze age people in Hungary (supposedly some cultures Maros disappear after 1400BC) moved widespread into India/SouthAsia/CentralAsis during Indo-Aryan or later.
    I get similar match to Stuttgart sample. However I got big SouthIndian component. Does it mean the migration occurred during Neolithic or Chalcolithic times into SouthAsia from Europe? Why people of particular caste distribution get these big nearness to Armenian BronE Age samples , Hungary Bronze age samples, Stuttgart samples and some other Rise samples in Czeck & Russia

  8. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,724
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b S21184, BY50830+
    mtDNA (M)
    U4b1a2 - FGS
    Y-DNA (M)
    ?
    mtDNA (P)
    I2

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Here is my messy attempt to fit South Asians onto the Lazaridis 2014 diagram for Europeans.

    LazTree.JPG

    Explanation: the South Asian population is very complex. It is a huge area that has attracted numerous inward migrations, including some from East Asia that I do not show, as they are distinct from the simple ASI/ANI model of Reich et al. 2009.

    What I attempt to show is:

    1. ASI: a migration from Africa via India to Australia, maybe 30-40 ka earlier than the next out-of-Africa migration.
    2. Palaeolithic: mtDNA haplogroup U2 (at least) from the next dispersal out of Africa. Component in Dravidian-speakers?
    3. Neolithic: migration of farmers from Iran to Indus valley. Ancestors IVC. Most likely Y-DNA J included. Language now dead, as absorbed by incoming IE. [Note: rice-farming input from east is not shown on diagram, simply to avoid creating even more mess on a chart not meant for South Asia]
    4. Indic: migration from region of BMAC, which had been taken over by Andronovo-Tazabagyab people. The mixture of IE and the language of the BMAC seems to have produced ancestral Indic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria...ogical_Complex


    Later inward migrations included
    1. Scythians (whom we can expect to bring more of the Yamnaya mixture, plus a bit of East Asian) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians
    2. Arabian
    3. Muslim conquests on the Indian subcontinent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_...n_subcontinent


    I'm sure experts on South Asia can improve on this.
    I'm thinking YDNA G and H should be included as part of the South Asian Neolithic Advance. H being almost entirely locally derived.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ADW_1981 For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-02-2014),  Jean M (11-12-2014)

  10. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    656
    Sex
    Location
    Places
    Ethnicity
    Tamil

    Chola Empire India India Maratha Empire North Korea Kazakhstan Dravida Nadu
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I'm thinking YDNA G and H should be included as part of the South Asian Neolithic Advance. H being almost entirely locally derived.
    The East Asian component predated dravidians via austroasiatic migrations, adivasis score elevated SE asian which is significantly less among dalits and sudra in those respective regions.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to tamilgangster For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-02-2014)

  12. #7
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    [Note: rice-farming input from east is not shown on diagram, simply to avoid creating even more mess on a chart not meant for South Asia]
    The whole idea that rice-farming came from China into India has now been challenged.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1121095216.htm
    Farming rice in India much older than thought, used as 'summer crop' by Indus Civilization

    Summary:
    Thought to have arrived from China in 2000 BC, the latest research shows that domesticated rice agriculture in India and Pakistan existed centuries earlier, and suggests systems of seasonal crop variation that would have provided a rich and diverse diet for the Bronze Age residents of the Indus valley. ...

    Latest research on archaeological sites of the ancient Indus Civilisation, which stretched across what is now Pakistan and northwest India during the Bronze Age, has revealed that domesticated rice farming in South Asia began far earlier than previously believed, and may have developed in tandem with -- rather than as a result of -- rice domestication in China.

    The research also confirms that Indus populations were the earliest people to use complex multi-cropping strategies across both seasons, growing foods during summer (rice, millets and beans) and winter (wheat, barley and pulses), which required different watering regimes. The findings suggest a network of regional farmers supplied assorted produce to the markets of the civilisation's ancient cities.
    Sources:
    • C.A. Petrie, J.Bates, T. Higham & R.N. Singh. Feeding ancient cities in South Asia: dating the adoption of rice, millet and tropical pulses in the Indus civilisation. Antiquity, November 2016 DOI: 10.17863/CAM.5938
    • J. Bates, C.A. Petrie, R.N. Singh. Approaching rice domestication in South Asia: New evidence from Indus settlements in northern India. Journal of Archaeological Science, 2016; DOI: 10.1016/j.jas.2016.04.018
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-27-2016 at 10:18 AM.

  13. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Observer (12-27-2016),  palamede (12-27-2016),  parasar (12-28-2016),  redifflal (01-31-2017),  Saetro (01-03-2017),  Táltos (12-27-2016)

  14. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    210

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    The whole idea that rice-farming came from China into India has now been challenged.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1121095216.htm
    Farming rice in India much older than thought, used as 'summer crop' by Indus Civilization[/LIST]
    It's most likely that wild-rice farming was introduced from the East (not necessarily from China), which was then followed by arrival of Japonica variant rice around 2000 BC.

    "We found evidence for an entirely separate domestication process in ancient South Asia, likely based around the wild species Oryza nivara. This led to the local development of a mix of 'wetland' and 'dryland' agriculture of local Oryza sativa indica rice agriculture before the truly 'wetland' Chinese rice, Oryza sativa japonica arrived around 2000 BC, says study co-author Dr Jennifer Bates"-Sciencedaily
    Origin of Oryza Sativa/Oryza Nivara rice is further East, around Eastern Himalayas.

    Oryza Sativa, it is believed, is associated with wet, humid climate, though it is not a tropical plant. It is probably a descendent of wild grass that was most likely cultivated in the foothills of the far Eastern Himalayas. Another school of thought believes that the rice plant may have originated in southern India, then spread to the north of the country and then onwards to China. It then arrived in Korea, the Philippines (about 2000 B. C.) and then Japan and Indonesia (about 1000 B. C.).

    Indica variety of rice was first domesticated in the area covering the foothills of the Eastern Himalayas (i.e. north-eastern India), stretching through Burma, Thailand, Laos, Vietnam and Southern China, the japonica variety was domesticated from wild rice in southern China which was introduced to India. Perennial wild rice still grow in Assam and Nepal. It seems to have appeared around 1400 BC in southern India after its domestication in the northern plains. It then spread to all the fertile alluvial plains watered by rivers."
    On Basal-Rich K7, I noticed "ASI" ancestry in South Asians breaks down into East Eurasian, Oceanian and Southeast_Asian, with East Eurasian being dominant.



    In contrast, Andamanese_Onge prefer Southeast_Asian at 93%, Ami prefer East Eurasian at 98% and Papuans prefer Oceanian at 96%.



    Marrero et al. (2016): Mtdna M lineages in India are significantly younger than those in East Asia, Southeast Asia and Near Oceania. He suggests Mtdna M arrived to South Asia from East instead of West.

    "Founder ages of M lineages in India are significantly younger than those in East Asia, Southeast Asia and Near Oceania. These results point to a colonization of the Indian subcontinent by modern humans carrying M lineages from the east instead the west side. Conclusions The existence of a northern route previously advanced by the phylogeography of mtDNA macrohaplogroup N is confirmed here by that of macrohaplogroup M. Taking this genetic evidence and those reported by other disciplines we have constructed a new and more conciliatory model to explain the history of modern humans out of Africa."
    Lazardis et al. (2016) on "ASI" component

    "Unlike Europe where a substantial number of pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers is available for study, the earliest population substratum of the “Ancestral South Indians” (ASI) is only indirectly known by its distant relationship to the Onge hunter-gatherers from the Andaman Islands, a population that may be an imperfect proxy for the ASI."
    "ASI" could be either mix of more than two ENA-related population or is ancestral to those three ENA population. IMO, ASI looks like a mix of ENA forager + ENA farmer. What do you guys think?

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Observer For This Useful Post:

     Ebizur (01-06-2017),  parasar (01-06-2017),  Tsakhur (01-09-2017),  Zayd (03-28-2017)

  16. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    656
    Sex
    Location
    Places
    Ethnicity
    Tamil

    Chola Empire India India Maratha Empire North Korea Kazakhstan Dravida Nadu
    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    It's most likely that wild-rice farming was introduced from the East (not necessarily from China), which was then followed by arrival of Japonica variant rice around 2000 BC.



    Origin of Oryza Sativa/Oryza Nivara rice is further East, around Eastern Himalayas.



    On Basal-Rich K7, I noticed "ASI" ancestry in South Asians breaks down into East Eurasian, Oceanian and Southeast_Asian, with East Eurasian being dominant.



    In contrast, Andamanese_Onge prefer Southeast_Asian at 93%, Ami prefer East Eurasian at 98% and Papuans prefer Oceanian at 96%.



    Marrero et al. (2016): Mtdna M lineages in India are significantly younger than those in East Asia, Southeast Asia and Near Oceania. He suggests Mtdna M arrived to South Asia from East instead of West.



    Lazardis et al. (2016) on "ASI" component



    "ASI" could be either mix of more than two ENA-related population or is ancestral to those three ENA population. IMO, ASI looks like a mix of ENA forager + ENA farmer. What do you guys think?
    Agreed, ASI(pre gedrosian populations in south asia) was not a homegenous component, there is a mix of negrito like, austroasiatic east eurasian, and also some archaic west eurasian strain

  17. #10
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,971
    Sex
    Location
    US
    Ethnicity
    India Andhra Kamma Telugu
    Nationality
    US
    Y-DNA (P)
    HM82 Z5890+CTS8144+
    mtDNA (M)
    U2a1a
    Y-DNA (M)
    HM69

    United States of America India
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Here is my messy attempt to fit South Asians onto the Lazaridis 2014 diagram for Europeans.

    LazTree.JPG

    Explanation: the South Asian population is very complex. It is a huge area that has attracted numerous inward migrations, including some from East Asia that I do not show, as they are distinct from the simple ASI/ANI model of Reich et al. 2009.

    What I attempt to show is:

    1. ASI: a migration from Africa via India to Australia, maybe 30-40 ka earlier than the next out-of-Africa migration.
    2. Palaeolithic: mtDNA haplogroup U2 (at least) from the next dispersal out of Africa. Component in Dravidian-speakers?
    3. Neolithic: migration of farmers from Iran to Indus valley. Ancestors IVC. Most likely Y-DNA J included. Language now dead, as absorbed by incoming IE. [Note: rice-farming input from east is not shown on diagram, simply to avoid creating even more mess on a chart not meant for South Asia]
    4. Indic: migration from region of BMAC, which had been taken over by Andronovo-Tazabagyab people. The mixture of IE and the language of the BMAC seems to have produced ancestral Indic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria...ogical_Complex


    Later inward migrations included
    1. Scythians (whom we can expect to bring more of the Yamnaya mixture, plus a bit of East Asian) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians
    2. Arabian
    3. Muslim conquests on the Indian subcontinent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_...n_subcontinent


    I'm sure experts on South Asia can improve on this.
    What about big connection between Hungarian bronze age samples and Some soldier castes in India and South Asia ?



    For example on BR2, Hungary, 3.2ky sample, I am getting following hits

    Largest segment = 4.6 cM
    Total of segments > 1 cM = 751.9 cM
    505 matching segments

    Significant other hits in Bronze age samples. Does it indicate Bronze age people in Hungary (supposedly some cultures Maros disappear after 1400BC) moved widespread into India/SouthAsia/CentralAsis during Indo-Aryan or later.
    I get similar match to Stuttgart sample. However I got big SouthIndian component. Does it mean the migration occurred during Neolithic times into SouthAsia from Europe?

Page 1 of 291 1231151101 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-21-2020, 09:38 AM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 11-16-2018, 09:16 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-17-2017, 04:01 AM
  4. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-26-2013, 08:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •