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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #1411
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India

    Priya Moorjani et al.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/

    Let me know your thoughts
    Check out these statements from the paper:

    we find that the Indian groups consistent with simple ANI-ASI mixture are most often from tribal and traditionally lower-caste groups. Middle- and upper-caste groups tend to have evidence of more complex histories, with signals of multiple layers of ANI ancestry from slightly different ANI ancestral populations (Appendix C). Further evidence for multiple waves of admixture in the history of many traditionally middle- and upper-caste groups (as well as Indo-European and northern groups) comes from the more recent admixture dates we observe in these groups (Table 1)


    And this on the first admixture event between ANI and ASI:

    this does not imply migration from West Eurasia into India during this time. On the contrary, a recent study that searched for West Eurasian groups most closely related to the ANI ancestors of Indians failed to find any evidence for shared ancestry between the ANI and groups in West Eurasia within the past 12,500 years3
    ...
    An alternative possibility that is also consistent with our data is that the ANI and ASI were both living in or near South Asia for a substantial period prior to their mixture.


    Like WTH!

    Okay, given that the first admixture event looks like mixing of 2 South Asian populations, so nothing exciting. The second admixture event, however, looks exciting IF the mixing occurred during the earlier extreme of the 1900-4200 YBP estimation. That makes it 4200 YBP when the second admixture happened... righr around the time of Indus collapse. If the admixture happened during the latter estimate of 1900 YBP, then it wasn't an Indo Aryan admixture event at all, but IndoScythian one. So, which one was it?

    Here is my guess: the first admixture event was before IVC and the second admixture event was a thousand years after Indo Aryans. We definetely need those 4 Rakhigarhi aDNA to really answer the 2nd admixture event.

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  3. #1412
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Check out these statements from the paper:

    we find that the Indian groups consistent with simple ANI-ASI mixture are most often from tribal and traditionally lower-caste groups. Middle- and upper-caste groups tend to have evidence of more complex histories, with signals of multiple layers of ANI ancestry from slightly different ANI ancestral populations (Appendix C). Further evidence for multiple waves of admixture in the history of many traditionally middle- and upper-caste groups (as well as Indo-European and northern groups) comes from the more recent admixture dates we observe in these groups (Table 1)


    And this on the first admixture event between ANI and ASI:

    this does not imply migration from West Eurasia into India during this time. On the contrary, a recent study that searched for West Eurasian groups most closely related to the ANI ancestors of Indians failed to find any evidence for shared ancestry between the ANI and groups in West Eurasia within the past 12,500 years3
    ...
    An alternative possibility that is also consistent with our data is that the ANI and ASI were both living in or near South Asia for a substantial period prior to their mixture.


    Like WTH!

    Okay, given that the first admixture event looks like mixing of 2 South Asian populations, so nothing exciting. The second admixture event, however, looks exciting IF the mixing occurred during the earlier extreme of the 1900-4200 YBP estimation. That makes it 4200 YBP when the second admixture happened... righr around the time of Indus collapse. If the admixture happened during the latter estimate of 1900 YBP, then it wasn't an Indo Aryan admixture event at all, but IndoScythian one. So, which one was it?

    Here is my guess: the first admixture event was before IVC and the second admixture event was a thousand years after Indo Aryans. We definetely need those 4 Rakhigarhi aDNA to really answer the 2nd admixture event.
    Yep makes sense to me, maybe Sintastha steppe herders brought R1a1a during the second admixture event after the proto-Yamnaya/Yamnaya-like Aryans were well and truly established in SA

    The Brahmins and Sindhis had a date of admixture 2k years ago, way later than IA migration

    Though South Indian Brahmin results are confusing in Dienekes work:

    My own analysis of Dodecad Project South Indian Brahmins arrived at a date of 4.1ky, and of North Indian Brahmins, a date of 2.3ky, which seems to be in good agreement with these results.
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-13-2018 at 07:54 AM.

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  5. #1413
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    There are two main admixture events in South Asia involving populations from West Eurasia:

    - Neolithic admixture from Iran_Neolithic-related populations rich in Y-HGs J2, R2 and L1 (these were not Indo-Aryans, because Indo-Aryans or even the Proto-Indo-Europeans didn't exist at that time)

    - Bronze Age admixture from Yamnaya-related populations originally from Eastern Europe rich in R1a (these were the Indo-Aryans and other Indo-Iranians).


    The peopling of South Asia: an illustrated guide

    These two major layers of West Eurasian ancestry are clearly reflected in different types of genetic data and analyses, not just in Moorjani's paper, but also in the age of structure of Y-haplogroups in India. For instance, both J2 and R2 show a lot more age and complexity than R1a, and are clearly Neolithic signals in India.

    There's very little Sintashta or even Scythian ancestry in India, because Indians show very low levels of European Neolithic and Siberian admixtures, which Sintashta and Scythians, respectively, had a lot of.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 01-13-2018 at 08:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    There are two main admixture events in South Asia involving populations from West Eurasia:

    - Neolithic admixture from Iran_Neolithic-related populations rich in Y-HGs J2, R2 and L1 (these were not Indo-Aryans, because Indo-Aryans or even the Proto-Indo-Europeans didn't exist at that time)

    - Bronze Age admixture from Yamnaya-related populations originally from Eastern Europe rich in R1a (these were the Indo-Aryans and other Indo-Iranians).


    The peopling of South Asia: an illustrated guide

    These two major layers of West Eurasian ancestry are clearly reflected in different types of genetic data and analyses, not just in Moorjani's paper, but also in the age of structure of Y-haplogroups in India. For instance, both J2 and R2 show a lot more age and complexity than R1a, and are clearly Neolithic signals in India.

    There's very little Sintashta or even Scythian ancestry in India, because Indians show very low levels of European Neolithic and Siberian admixtures, which Sintashta and Scythians, respectively, had a lot of.
    Any Scythian admixture in South Asia would have been from the Indo Scythians from south/central Asia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is absolutely no aDNA from south/central Asia. So, we can't confidently say that there is no Scythian admixture, especially the recorded history of movement of these people starting 200BCE.

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    If I remember correctly, Punjabi and other NW Indians/SC asians showed high affinity with Scythian samples on Kurd's IBS runs and K12 calculator.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....BS-Comparisons
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  10. #1416
    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Fantastic if the Andamanese have it then that makes a strong case for the paleolithic SA origin of the retroflex, So the scenarios now are:

    1 The Paleolithic Indian language (I strongly doubt it was the Munda) which had the retroflex was substrated by incoming IA in the NW and then given to Dravidian through areal contact (cant be substrate as the IA languages were not spoken in the south). Unlikely because the paleolithic Indians contributed substantial ancestry to modern south Indian Dravidians which makes it more likely that it was substrate than an areal contact feature

    2 The Paleolithic Indian language which had the retroflex was substrated by both Dravidian and IA independently supported by the footnote you have mentioned: Whether to include the Andaman languages in the area presents a problem: While they do share some "South Asian" traits (SOV, retroflexes), it is difficult to relate this to "contact". It is possible to imagine a scenario in which they represent a remnant of a very ancient substratum once found on the mainland

    3 The Paleolithic Indian language which had the retroflex was substrated by Dravidian and Dravidian into IA by the time of the Vedas - makes the most sense to me supports Moorjanis analysis on the 2 major admixture signatures in north Indians vs only 1 in the south.

    Dienekes
    A second interesting finding of the paper is that admixture dates in Indo-European groups are later than in Dravidian groups. This is demonstrated quite clearly in the rolloff figure on the left. Moreover, it does not seem that the admixture times for Indo-Europeans coincide with the appearance of the Indo-Aryans, presumably during the 2nd millennium BC: they are much later. I believe that this is fairly convincing evidence that north India has been affected by subsequent population movements from central Asia of "Indo-Scythian"-related populations, for which there is ample historical evidence.

    After reading this, I'm confused further lol - the second admixture date in North Indians was more recent than IA arrival dates - parasar, this might support your Indo-Aryan is older in SA than R1a hypothesis
    That population admixture dates paper I can't comment about at all very much as I gave up once trying to understand the implications of it, somewhere here on this site only. Regarding the retroflexes, it is not certain where and how exactly they arose in the subcontinent and how they spread, even if we are somewhat confident that they were in fact used as phonemes by paleolithic Indians of some kind. But it appears that the feature of retroflexion is strongest in the current mainland subcontinent in its northwest. This may perhaps be because of the northwest region's recent rise due to Indus Valley Neolithic, Indus Valley Civilisation and the Indo-Aryan cultures later on, but it may also be because even in very ancient S. Asia it is that region that originally had them and even the Andaman languages got into Andaman islands from there at some very remote point (it sometimes feels like the northwest of the subcontinent is the subcontinent, culturally speaking, at all times on earth, doesn't it? quite unfair to the rest of India lol).

    And regarding your first possibility, I just want to note that even under the scenario that the Dravidian languages had a native south Indian substrate which had its own retroflex phonemes, it is not altogether unimaginable that Dravidian anyway got its retroflex phonemes from contact with Indo-Aryan. For example, Hock's hypothesis that the origin of at least the stops of the retroflex and alveolar kind in Dravidian was due to extensive areal contact with Indo-Aryan is perfectly reasonable from a linguistic standpoint seeing the tempting parallels that Hock shows between the sound changes that bring about retroflex and alveolar stops as phonemes in a lot of Dravidian and rules of a similar kind in Indo-Aryan, even if it is quite speculative at the moment; and we can't be sure- it may even become the dominant paradigm in IA and Dr. linguistics in years to come if more evidence becomes available in its favour.

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  12. #1417
    Quote Originally Posted by Jartan View Post
    Yes, the situation in Europe was different. I'm not sure if the Mesolithic Haplogroup N people were East Asian, they were most likely mixed. There were trade relations established with Neolithic colonizers for centuries with groups of IndoEuropeans before the final bronze age group arrived. There was likely a gradual assimilation process among the Neolithic and Mesolithic people when they arrived.

    I only agree with the fact that Neolithic, IndoEuropeans and Mesolithic people were genetically similar for the most part. I don't believe certain South Asian groups are 40,000 years removed genetically from Europeans and MiddleEastern people.

    In the context of the Indian migration, it's increasingly obvious there was more war and conflict. An entire Language group was forced into South India. The Indo-Iranians established many links with the Oxus Civilization before migrating into India, the caste system was put in place to stop the race mixing and establish order in society. Of course this is politically incorrect and goes against Liberal doctrine but it is fact. Once the Rakhigarhi Paper is released there will likely be a majority of people who are Haplogroup L since the Neolithic Iranians started the IndusValley Civilization.
    This guy is a moron. Its weird how you guys take anything he says seriously when everything he has written here is false. To begin with Neolithic iranians are more similar to modern south central asians than they are to modern iranians. And its definitely not confirmed that Indo-aryans came to india through warfare, in fact that seems extremely unlikely considering the evidence we have. Its not even confirmed that R1a and aryans came from outside the subcontinent yet. David on his blog believes its already confirmed but he is wrong about that. Regardless Yamnaya where not europeans and did not look like modern europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    If I remember correctly, Punjabi and other NW Indians/SC asians showed high affinity with Scythian samples on Kurd's IBS runs and K12 calculator.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....BS-Comparisons

    I think Generalissimo is right for the most part. There is very little Sintashta or Scythian like ancestry in the vast majority of South Asians. However, NW South Asians and upper castes (mostly Brahmins) throughout the subcontinent do show consistent signs of some type of steppe or Scythian (if it's not Indo-Aryan) like related ancestry that usually shows up as NE Euro/Baltic/East Euro/WHG/EHG etc. on various Gedmatch calculators. Many of us also consistently get Siberian/Amerindian/Beringian like admixture in small amounts on almost every Gedmatch calculator. With the exception of some individuals who have ethnic origins in regions where their ancestors might have intermixed with neighboring Sino-Tibetan speaking populations or Turkic Central Asians populations more recently, the admixture is likely very old.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 01-13-2018 at 05:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeathStranding View Post
    This guy is a moron. Its weird how you guys take anything he says seriously when everything he has written here is false. To begin with Neolithic iranians are more similar to modern south central asians than they are to modern iranians. And its definitely not confirmed that Indo-aryans came to india through warfare, in fact that seems extremely unlikely considering the evidence we have. Its not even confirmed that R1a and aryans came from outside the subcontinent yet. David on his blog believes its already confirmed but he is wrong about that. Regardless Yamnaya where not europeans and did not look like modern europeans.
    How is he wrong? So you mean R1a and Indo Europeans extended from India to West and North?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    I think Generalissimo is right for the most part. There is very little Sintashta or Scythian like ancestry in the vast majority of South Asians. However, NW South Asians and upper castes (mostly Brahmins) throughout the subcontinent do show consistent signs of some type of steppe or Scythian (if it's not Indo-Aryan) like related ancestry that usually shows up as NE Euro/Baltic/East Euro/WHG/EHG etc. on various Gedmatch calculators. Many of us also consistently get Siberian/Amerindian/Beringian like admixture in small amounts on almost every Gedmatch calculator. With the exception of some individuals who have ethnic origins in regions where their ancestors might have intermixed with neighboring Sino-Tibetan speaking populations or Turkic Central Asians populations more recently, the admixture is likely very old.
    The question is not whether or not there is NE Euro like ancestry, but when did the admixture occur. That Moorjani paper was hinting at much-later-than-Indo-Aryan date, which coincides with the Indo-Scythian era in South/central Asia. If that turns out to be true, the NE Euro like admixture is not IndoAryan(perhaps R1a isn't either). But we just have to wait and see for aDNA from the region.

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