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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #3561
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    I feel like I've seen these before, Parasar, but where? They aren't in the paper or supplement of "Genomic analysis of the Andamanese". The Y chromosomes of (some of) the same samples are in "Y-chromosomal sequences of diverse Indian populations and the ancestry of the Andamanese", and are now on the YFull tree, but they are normal (no E1a, A, or C2).

    Edit: wait, were these from Narasimhan et al's awful Y haplogroup caller?
    Last edited by Megalophias; 01-11-2019 at 11:54 PM.

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  3. #3562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    I feel like I've seen these before, Parasar, but where? They aren't in the paper or supplement of "Genomic analysis of the Andamanese". The Y chromosomes of (some of) the same samples are in "Y-chromosomal sequences of diverse Indian populations and the ancestry of the Andamanese", and are now on the YFull tree, but they are normal (no E1a, A, or C2).

    Edit: wait, were these from Narasimhan et al's awful Y haplogroup caller?
    Megalophias
    You have likely seen them.
    The calls were made in the Narasimhan Reich paper. The Lankan ones look fine but some of the others are surprising.

    Edit: Yes the same Yfiler program!

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  5. #3563
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    Ah okay then I give them zero credence till I see the SNP calls myself.

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  7. #3564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Ah okay then I give them zero credence till I see the SNP calls myself.
    I take them with a grain of salt myself. The single rare subclade of C1a sample is one thing but all the samples listed just as "E1a" and "C2" set off alarms.

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  9. #3565
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    This may be of interest for you:

    https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...-dsa011519.php

    Differentiating summer and winter rainfall in South Asia around 4.2 ka climatic 'event'

    https://doi.org/10.5194/cp-15-73-2019

    © Author(s) 2019. This work is distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 License.

    Research article
    15 Jan 2019

    Indian winter and summer monsoon strength over the 4.2 ka BP event in foraminifer isotope records from the Indus River delta in the Arabian Sea

    Alena Giesche1, Michael Staubwasser2, Cameron A. Petrie3, and David A. Hodell1

    1Godwin Laboratory for Palaeoclimate Research, Department of Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge, Cambridge, CB2 3EQ, UK
    2Institute for Geology and Mineralogy, University of Cologne, Zülpicher Str. 49a, 50674 Cologne, Germany
    3Department of Archaeology, University of Cambridge, Cambridge, CB2 3DZ, UK

    Received: 15 Aug 2018 – Discussion started: 03 Sep 2018 – Accepted: 07 Dec 2018 – Published: 15 Jan 2019

    Abstract

    The plains of northwest South Asia receive rainfall during both the Indian summer (June–September) and winter (December–March) monsoon. Researchers have long attempted to deconstruct the influence of these precipitation regimes in paleoclimate records, in order to better understand regional climatic drivers and their potential impact on human populations. The mid–late Holocene transition between 5.3 and 3.3 ka is of particular interest in this region because it spans the period of the Indus Civilization from its early development, through its urbanization, and onto eventual transformation into a rural society. An oxygen isotope record of the surface-dwelling planktonic foraminifer Globigerinoides ruber from the northeast Arabian Sea provided evidence for an abrupt decrease in rainfall and reduction in Indus River discharge at 4.2 ka, which the authors linked to the decline in the urban phase of the Indus Civilization (Staubwasser et al., 2003). Given the importance of this study, we used the same core (63KA) to measure the oxygen isotope profiles of two other foraminifer species at decadal resolution over the interval from 5.4 to 3.0 ka and to replicate a larger size fraction of G. ruber than measured previously. By selecting both thermocline-dwelling (Neogloboquadrina dutertrei) and shallow-dwelling (Globigerinoides sacculifer) species, we provide enhanced detail of the climatic changes that occurred over this crucial time interval. We found evidence for a period of increased surface water mixing, which we suggest was related to a strengthened winter monsoon with a peak intensity over 200 years from 4.5 to 4.3 ka. The time of greatest change occurred at 4.1 ka when both the summer and winter monsoon weakened, resulting in a reduction in rainfall in the Indus region. The earliest phase of the urban Mature Harappan period coincided with the period of inferred stronger winter monsoon between 4.5 and 4.3 ka, whereas the end of the urbanized phase occurred some time after the decrease in both the summer and winter monsoon strength by 4.1 ka. Our findings provide evidence that the initial growth of large Indus urban centers coincided with increased winter rainfall, whereas the contraction of urbanism and change in subsistence strategies followed a reduction in rainfall of both seasons.

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  11. #3566
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    Soon, you can see how the Harappans looked
    https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le26101458.ece

    "Experts recreating faces of five skeletal remains; results will be out in 2 months ... We needed complete skeletal remains in a good condition,” he said. “And we were lucky to find five — three males and two females,” he added.

    The skeletal remains were CT scanned and the data fed into a programme developed by the Korean scientists to fill them “layer by layer with blood and flesh to show as to how the Harappan people looked like” ...tentative results were already available. “We can, therefore, soon answer questions on physical similarities between the modern day population and the Harappan people,” ...

    Dr. Shinde also shared that the analyses of the DNA collected from the skeletal remains was at an advanced stage and the findings would be published soon. He rubbished reports that the findings were being delayed due to political pressure, contending that DNA analysis was a lengthy process. Besides, he added, the samples was very small and the signatures were very weak. ....

    Harappans, credited with several present day traditions such as the folded hands greeting or namaste, chicken tandoor, use of the bindi and yoga, also seemed to have started the marriage system."
    Last edited by parasar; 01-28-2019 at 07:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Soon, you can see how the Harappans looked
    https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le26101458.ece

    "Experts recreating faces of five skeletal remains; results will be out in 2 months ... We needed complete skeletal remains in a good condition,” he said. “And we were lucky to find five — three males and two females,” he added.

    The skeletal remains were CT scanned and the data fed into a programme developed by the Korean scientists to fill them “layer by layer with blood and flesh to show as to how the Harappan people looked like” ...tentative results were already available. “We can, therefore, soon answer questions on physical similarities between the modern day population and the Harappan people,” ...

    Dr. Shinde also shared that the analyses of the DNA collected from the skeletal remains was at an advanced stage and the findings would be published soon. He rubbished reports that the findings were being delayed due to political pressure, contending that DNA analysis was a lengthy process. Besides, he added, the samples was very small and the signatures were very weak. ....

    Harappans, credited with several present day traditions such as the folded hands greeting or namaste, chicken tandoor, use of the bindi and yoga, also seemed to have started the marriage system."
    Add copper plates for strong information, Tulasi plant worship, proto-Shiv, proto-Vishnu, bullock carts, Buffalo based economy, trading, bead like jewerly etc...
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    mtDNA: U2a1a
    extras 309.1C 315.1C 522.1A 522.2 CG8572A G8860A T11368C T16093a T16154C C16519T C195T

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.99 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 65.2 Saidu_Sharif_IA_o:S7722.E1.L1 17.8 Udegram_IA:I1985 7.8 Jordanian:S_Jordanian-1 4.4 Barikot_IA:I6545 2.2 Scotland_N:I26602 Narva_Lithuania: Donkalnis6

    Lactose persistance rs3213871 rs4988243

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Soon, you can see how the Harappans looked
    https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le26101458.ece

    "Experts recreating faces of five skeletal remains; results will be out in 2 months ... We needed complete skeletal remains in a good condition,” he said. “And we were lucky to find five — three males and two females,” he added.

    The skeletal remains were CT scanned and the data fed into a programme developed by the Korean scientists to fill them “layer by layer with blood and flesh to show as to how the Harappan people looked like” ...tentative results were already available. “We can, therefore, soon answer questions on physical similarities between the modern day population and the Harappan people,” ...

    Dr. Shinde also shared that the analyses of the DNA collected from the skeletal remains was at an advanced stage and the findings would be published soon. He rubbished reports that the findings were being delayed due to political pressure, contending that DNA analysis was a lengthy process. Besides, he added, the samples was very small and the signatures were very weak. ....

    Harappans, credited with several present day traditions such as the folded hands greeting or namaste, chicken tandoor, use of the bindi and yoga, also seemed to have started the marriage system."


    Sorry for derailing, but this is literally the first thing I saw when I clicked that link.

    On another note, how did the Harappans influence North Indian culture (i.e. folded hands greeting or namaste, chicken tandoor, use of the bindi and yoga, also seemed to have started the marriage system) if they left NW South Asia before the Indo-Aryans arrived?

    Sorry if that sounds like a dumb question, but I'm not really good at anything except Y-DNA
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    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383* (Y154917-)
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M479 > M124 > P267 > Y12100 > Y8763 > Y8766 > V3714 > SK2142 > Y1377 > Y1379 > Z29271 > Y1383 x Y154917


    mtDNA: M5a1a


    MATERNAL UNCLE:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R1b1a1b1b3a-Z2109
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M173 > M343 > L754 > L388 > P297 > M269 > L23 > Z2103 > Z2106 > Z2109

    mtDNA: U7a3a*

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    ...
    On another note, how did the Harappans influence North Indian culture (i.e. folded hands greeting or namaste, chicken tandoor, use of the bindi and yoga, also seemed to have started the marriage system) if they left NW South Asia before the Indo-Aryans arrived?

    Sorry if that sounds like a dumb question, but I'm not really good at anything except Y-DNA
    Guess, one less farfetched and another just crazy wild:
    1. IndoAryans arrived around 2000BC, they would have encountered a late stage IVC and get influenced bigly. Not so far fetched just thinking about this.
    2. IVC people that practiced those things were already IndoAryans. Mind blown. Again, if we just find hints of steppe(in actual IVC remains) or if steppe turns out to be a nothing-burger for IndoAryan migration, then this might be a viable one. Not likely based on all the ancient genetic evidence so far.
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  19. #3570
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Guess, one less farfetched and another just crazy wild:
    1. IndoAryans arrived around 2000BC, they would have encountered a late stage IVC and get influenced bigly. Not so far fetched just thinking about this.
    2. IVC people that practiced those things were already IndoAryans. Mind blown. Again, if we just find hints of steppe(in actual IVC remains) or if steppe turns out to be a nothing-burger for IndoAryan migration, then this might be a viable one. Not likely based on all the ancient genetic evidence so far.
    Based on linguistic and genetic evidence, Swat Indo-Aryans certainly diffused into IVC like pops. A model where you run Khatri/Velama(or Guj Patel)/Paniya (ASI described by Narasimhan) can account for most South Asian pops with good fit except the ones that need excess steppe (Jatts, Rors, some Brahmins) or excess Iran N (Gedrosians, Khojas/Muslim Sindhis/Lohanas). R1a can also be found across linguistic groups with a North to South gradient (not West to East) and IVC haps H/L/G/J2/R2a+ mtdna M can be found in Indo-Aryans

    The Dravidian language influenced the Indo-Aryan languages. Dravidian languages show extensive lexical (vocabulary) borrowing, but only a few traits of structural (either phonological or grammatical) borrowing from Indo-Aryan, whereas Indo-Aryan shows more structural than lexical borrowings from the Dravidian languages.[25] Many of these features are already present in the oldest known Indo-Aryan language, the language of the Rigveda (c. 1500 BCE), which also includes over a dozen words borrowed from Dravidian. The linguistic evidence for Dravidian impact grows increasingly strong as we move from the Samhitas down through the later Vedic works and into the classical post-Vedic literature.[59] This represents an early religious and cultural fusion[60][note 2] or synthesis[62] between ancient Dravidians and Indo-Aryans.[63][61][64][65]

    According to Mallory there are an estimated thirty to forty Dravidian loanwords in Rig Veda.[66] Some of those for which Dravidian etymologies are certain include ಕುಲಾಯ kulāya "nest", ಕುಲ್ಫ kulpha "ankle", ದಂಡ daṇḍa "stick", ಕುಲ kūla "slope", ಬಿಲ bila "hollow", ಖಲ khala "threshing floor".[67]:81[67] While J. Bloch and M. Witzel believe that the Indo-Aryans moved into an already Dravidian speaking area after the oldest parts of the Rig Veda were already composed.[68]

    According to Thomason and Kaufman, there is strong evidence that Dravidian influenced Indic through "shift", that is, native Dravidian speakers learning and adopting Indic languages.[69] According to Erdosy, the most plausible explanation for the presence of Dravidian structural features in Old Indo-Aryan is that the majority of early Old Indo-Aryan speakers had a Dravidian mother tongue which they gradually abandoned.Erdosy (1995:18) Even though the innovative traits in Indic could be explained by multiple internal explanations, early Dravidian influence is the only explanation that can account for all of the innovations at once. Early Dravidian influence accounts for several of the innovative traits in Indic better than any internal explanation that has been proposed.[70] According to Zvelebil, "several scholars have demonstrated that pre-Indo-Aryan and pre-Dravidian bilingualism in India provided conditions for the far-reaching influence of Dravidian on the Indo-Aryan tongues in the spheres of phonology, syntax and vocabulary."[71]


    Also Swat IAs themselves are all over the place, all have AASI, some have significant AASI ancestry which can be explained by already being mixed with IVC-like pops unless central Asian AASI existed, though this seems to be missing in the Ferghana sample. This makes sense as Dravidian is already in the earliest IA work (Rg Veda)
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-29-2019 at 12:54 AM.

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