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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jartan View Post
    ...the caste system was put in place to stop the race mixing and establish order in society. Of course this is politically incorrect and goes against Liberal doctrine but it is fact. Once the Rakhigarhi Paper is released there will likely be a majority of people who are Haplogroup L since the Neolithic Iranians started the IndusValley Civilization.
    You sound like a nut.

  2. #1402
    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    It ain't caste system in the first place, its VARNA system. I don't think you understand what's in the vedas and you seem to run with what's in the current "caste system" within Hindu societies. There is something called Varna and Avarna. Shudras(present day caste system 'may' place them with scheduled(avarna) groups in different societies) are part of Varna. You can't mix up what is a product of present day social stratification with something ancient if you want to argue and make a point.

    Caste system is what you call "Jaati/Jaat" its more of a part of an ethnic makeup. You can ethnically be from the same ethnic group yet you won't be marrying someone from a different Jaati.
    Yes, this is why many South Asians are more diseased genetically. There were obviously groups of people considered lower than others, the Varna system was divided upon a lineage, kin and tribal basis.

    "It was found that 81 out of 263 unique South Asian groups, including 14 groups with estimated census sizes of over a million, have a genetic mutation base with recessive diseases much more than the one that occurred in both Finns and Ashkenazi Jews in the West. This source of risk for genetic recessive diseases was different from that due to marriages among close relatives (consanguineous marriages), also a major cause of recessive disease here, said the study published in online edition of ‘Nature Genetics,’ on July 17."

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/...le19303968.ece

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jartan View Post
    Yes, this is why many South Asians are more diseased genetically. There were obviously groups of people considered lower than others, the Varna system was divided upon a lineage, kin and tribal basis.

    "It was found that 81 out of 263 unique South Asian groups, including 14 groups with estimated census sizes of over a million, have a genetic mutation base with recessive diseases much more than the one that occurred in both Finns and Ashkenazi Jews in the West. This source of risk for genetic recessive diseases was different from that due to marriages among close relatives (consanguineous marriages), also a major cause of recessive disease here, said the study published in online edition of ‘Nature Genetics,’ on July 17."

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/...le19303968.ece
    I think you're mixing science and psuedo-science. The research paper has lot more detail than the generic newspaper article... the groups with the highest IBD scores(relative to Finns) are likely due to isolation and relatively small founding population... like Gujjars of Kashmir, Nagas, and my own ethnic group in Nepal.

    Here is the actual study:

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...nderEvents.pdf
    Last edited by poi; 01-12-2018 at 09:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    retroflex phonemes - does the Veddoid language have them? I think that would provide clues as to the origin of Paleolithic SA languages and whether these were substrate to Dravidian
    According to the 2016 book "The Languages and Linguistics of South Asia", Andaman languages have retroflex and dental contrast. In chapter 2 of the same book , "Contact and Convergence", section 2.2.2 "South Asia as a linguistic area", author Colin Masica mentions in a footnote, the following when talking about the Andamanese languages and South Asian linguistic area.

    Whether to include the Andaman languages in the area presents a problem: While they do share some "South Asian" traits (SOV, retroflexes), it is difficult to relate this to "contact". It is possible to imagine a scenario in which they represent a remnant of a very ancient substratum once found on the mainland. (The Nicobarese languages are not typologically South Asian.)
    Also I remember seeing M. Witzel listing some of the words of Nihali, the supposedly Pre-Dravidian words of Irula, etc. and I checked them out here. Many of the words have retroflexes. Of the actual seeming Vedda substratum in Sinhala, I'm not aware.

    And I have gone through some of the work of linguist Hans Hock who challenged the usual assumption of Proto-Dravidian having some unanalysable retroflexes. One paper written in 1996 on the topic is this. In it, Hans Hock proposes a seemingly radical but not at all crazy hypothesis that Dravidian got all of its retroflexes pretty recently (after Indo-Aryan migration began) and because of contact with Indo-Aryan, which got it from contact/language-shift associated with some other now-lost language in the northwest subcontinent or out of internal developments (earlier possibility may be more likely because of retroflex phonemes seemingly being a part of the South Asian linguistic area). This is supported by several arguments in that paper, such as that
    1. The famous Proto-Dravidian morphophonemic rules that obtain retroflex stops and their geminates because of assimilation of the predominant morph -t- (dental stop) marking past tense, etc. with the features of the retroflex sonorant at the end of the monosyllabic PDr. root they interact with: -ḷ and -ṇ. Similar processes also give rise to alveolar stops and their geminates in intervocalic position in PDr. when root-final alveolar sonorants -l and -n interact with a following -t-. The prevailing view is that while many Proto-Dravidian retroflexes arose by the PDr. morphophonemic rules seen above, some cannot be analysed in that manner based on available data thus necessitating the reconstruction of retroflex stops in root-final position, and Hock argues through several means for the possibility that all the retroflex stops seen in non-word-initial positions in PDr. were the result of the known morphophonemic rules of PDr., such as

    a. The late attestation of Dravidian: this may have caused the loss of the conditions that help further analysis for those items in which there is only a retroflex and alveolar stop reconstruction possible in the root-final position, as the language was changed quite a bit.
    b. The forbidding of word-initial retroflex consonants in PDr. may reflect this situation wherein only interactions at the morph boundaries could give rise to retroflex stops.
    c. Some sort of apparently exact parallelism with certain Indo-Aryan sound changes that increases the likelihood of this hypothesis in an overall, big-picture sort of way for S. Asia.

    Hock also goes some way in explaining the retroflex sonorants ḷ, ṇ that caused the emergence of many retroflex stops in PDr. by positing cognacy between several Dr. roots with final alveolars -l, -n and those with final retroflexes -ḷ, -ṇ. This renders the retroflex sonorant - alveolar sonorant contrast in the root-final position in Early PDr. only secondary and Hock talks about some possibilities of how Early PDr. may have got into this situation.

    Please go through the paper in detail to appreciate Hock's point of view more accurately than I have tried to represent here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    It ain't caste system in the first place, its VARNA system. I don't think you understand what's in the vedas and you seem to run with what's in the current "caste system" within Hindu societies. There is something called Varna and Avarna. Shudras(present day caste system 'may' place them with scheduled(avarna) groups in different societies) are part of Varna. You can't mix up what is a product of present day social stratification with something ancient if you want to argue and make a point.

    Caste system is what you call "Jaati/Jaat" its more of a part of an ethnic makeup. You can ethnically be from the same ethnic group yet you won't be marrying someone from a different Jaati.
    Yes exactly, genetics supports this. In the time of the Vedas, there was widespread mixing which goes completely against Jartans point. When the social order/stratification happened, everyone in SA including the Paniya were well and truly mixed

    You might need to recalibrate your mental scenario of South Asia, sorry bro. 1900 years ago is far more recent than when the Vedic Aryans, who did not mention race, came to SA. Rg Veda was composed between 1500 to 1200 BC in the Panjab

    Moorjani:

    Beginning about 4200 years ago, ANI and ASI populations, which previously had kept mostly separate, began mating together, a flurry of intermarriage that probably lasted more than 2 millennia.

    The traces of this alternating pattern can be clearly seen in the genomes of modern Indians today, the study finds. For example, the percentage of ANI ancestry ranges from a high of 71% in the Pathan ethnic group of northern India to a low of 17% in the Paniya group of southwest India, meaning that the degree of ancient admixture is still measurable and significant in even the most isolated and endogamous ethnic groups.


    What accounts for this pattern? The team points out that the period of intermarriage overlaps with a time of huge social upheavals in India, including the collapse of the ancient Indus civilization—which thrived on the Indian subcontinent between about 2600 B.C.E. and 1900 B.C.E.—as well as large-scale population movements and the rise of the Vedic religion, the predecessor of modern Hinduism. But after 1900 years ago, India’s caste system became a major cultural force, the team concludes, based on its new genetic findings and confirmed by evidence from ancient religious texts. The system rigidly defined four social classes, with the Brahmans at the top and the Sudras at the bottom. Intermarriage was not allowed between them. The Rig-Veda, India’s oldest surviving text and a founding document of ancient Hinduism, does not mention the caste system in its earliest sections, probably written some 3000 years ago; only much later are references to it found.

    BTW thanks for linking the Andamanese mtDNA M fact, wasnt aware of it. Makes sense that the Andamanese share maternal lineage with paleolithic South Asians, thats the commonality
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-13-2018 at 03:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jartan View Post
    Yes, this is why many South Asians are more diseased genetically. There were obviously groups of people considered lower than others, the Varna system was divided upon a lineage, kin and tribal basis.

    "It was found that 81 out of 263 unique South Asian groups, including 14 groups with estimated census sizes of over a million, have a genetic mutation base with recessive diseases much more than the one that occurred in both Finns and Ashkenazi Jews in the West. This source of risk for genetic recessive diseases was different from that due to marriages among close relatives (consanguineous marriages), also a major cause of recessive disease here, said the study published in online edition of ‘Nature Genetics,’ on July 17."

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/...le19303968.ece
    This occurs with endogamy, no one is arguing against endogamy in SA, you're just putting 'race' into it like there were some pure 'races' in SA who chose not to mix
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-13-2018 at 01:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    According to the 2016 book "The Languages and Linguistics of South Asia", Andaman languages have retroflex and dental contrast. In chapter 2 of the same book , "Contact and Convergence", section 2.2.2 "South Asia as a linguistic area", author Colin Masica mentions in a footnote, the following when talking about the Andamanese languages and South Asian linguistic area.



    Also I remember seeing M. Witzel listing some of the words of Nihali, the supposedly Pre-Dravidian words of Irula, etc. and I checked them out here. Many of the words have retroflexes. Of the actual seeming Vedda substratum in Sinhala, I'm not aware.

    And I have gone through some of the work of linguist Hans Hock who challenged the usual assumption of Proto-Dravidian having some unanalysable retroflexes. One paper written in 1996 on the topic is this. In it, Hans Hock proposes a seemingly radical but not at all crazy hypothesis that Dravidian got all of its retroflexes pretty recently (after Indo-Aryan migration began) and because of contact with Indo-Aryan, which got it from contact/language-shift associated with some other now-lost language in the northwest subcontinent or out of internal developments (earlier possibility may be more likely because of retroflex phonemes seemingly being a part of the South Asian linguistic area). This is supported by several arguments in that paper, such as that
    1. The famous Proto-Dravidian morphophonemic rules that obtain retroflex stops and their geminates because of assimilation of the predominant morph -t- (dental stop) marking past tense, etc. with the features of the retroflex sonorant at the end of the monosyllabic PDr. root they interact with: -ḷ and -ṇ. Similar processes also give rise to alveolar stops and their geminates in intervocalic position in PDr. when root-final alveolar sonorants -l and -n interact with a following -t-. The prevailing view is that while many Proto-Dravidian retroflexes arose by the PDr. morphophonemic rules seen above, some cannot be analysed in that manner based on available data thus necessitating the reconstruction of retroflex stops in root-final position, and Hock argues through several means for the possibility that all the retroflex stops seen in non-word-initial positions in PDr. were the result of the known morphophonemic rules of PDr., such as

    a. The late attestation of Dravidian: this may have caused the loss of the conditions that help further analysis for those items in which there is only a retroflex and alveolar stop reconstruction possible in the root-final position, as the language was changed quite a bit.
    b. The forbidding of word-initial retroflex consonants in PDr. may reflect this situation wherein only interactions at the morph boundaries could give rise to retroflex stops.
    c. Some sort of apparently exact parallelism with certain Indo-Aryan sound changes that increases the likelihood of this hypothesis in an overall, big-picture sort of way for S. Asia.

    Hock also goes some way in explaining the retroflex sonorants ḷ, ṇ that caused the emergence of many retroflex stops in PDr. by positing cognacy between several Dr. roots with final alveolars -l, -n and those with final retroflexes -ḷ, -ṇ. This renders the retroflex sonorant - alveolar sonorant contrast in the root-final position in Early PDr. only secondary and Hock talks about some possibilities of how Early PDr. may have got into this situation.

    Please go through the paper in detail to appreciate Hock's point of view more accurately than I have tried to represent here.
    Fantastic if the Andamanese have it then that makes a strong case for the paleolithic SA origin of the retroflex, So the scenarios now are:

    1 The Paleolithic Indian language (I strongly doubt it was the Munda) which had the retroflex was substrated by incoming IA in the NW and then given to Dravidian through areal contact (cant be substrate as the IA languages were not spoken in the south). Unlikely because the paleolithic Indians contributed substantial ancestry to modern south Indian Dravidians which makes it more likely that it was substrate than an areal contact feature

    2 The Paleolithic Indian language which had the retroflex was substrated by both Dravidian and IA independently supported by the footnote you have mentioned: Whether to include the Andaman languages in the area presents a problem: While they do share some "South Asian" traits (SOV, retroflexes), it is difficult to relate this to "contact". It is possible to imagine a scenario in which they represent a remnant of a very ancient substratum once found on the mainland

    3 The Paleolithic Indian language which had the retroflex was substrated by Dravidian and Dravidian into IA by the time of the Vedas - makes the most sense to me supports Moorjanis analysis on the 2 major admixture signatures in north Indians vs only 1 in the south.

    Dienekes
    A second interesting finding of the paper is that admixture dates in Indo-European groups are later than in Dravidian groups. This is demonstrated quite clearly in the rolloff figure on the left. Moreover, it does not seem that the admixture times for Indo-Europeans coincide with the appearance of the Indo-Aryans, presumably during the 2nd millennium BC: they are much later. I believe that this is fairly convincing evidence that north India has been affected by subsequent population movements from central Asia of "Indo-Scythian"-related populations, for which there is ample historical evidence.

    After reading this, I'm confused further lol - the second admixture date in North Indians was more recent than IA arrival dates - parasar, this might support your Indo-Aryan is older in SA than R1a hypothesis
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-13-2018 at 03:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Fantastic if the Andamanese have it then that makes a strong case for the paleolithic SA origin of the retroflex, So the scenarios now are:

    1 The Paleolithic Indian language (I strongly doubt it was the Munda) which had the retroflex was substrated by incoming IA in the NW and then given to Dravidian through areal contact (cant be substrate as the IA languages were not spoken in the south). Unlikely because the paleolithic Indians contributed substantial ancestry to modern south Indian Dravidians which makes it more likely that it was substrate than an areal contact feature

    2 The Paleolithic Indian language which had the retroflex was substrated by both Dravidian and IA independently supported by the footnote you have mentioned: Whether to include the Andaman languages in the area presents a problem: While they do share some "South Asian" traits (SOV, retroflexes), it is difficult to relate this to "contact". It is possible to imagine a scenario in which they represent a remnant of a very ancient substratum once found on the mainland

    3 The Paleolithic Indian language which had the retroflex was substrated by Dravidian and Dravidian into IA by the time of the Vedas - makes the most sense to me supports Moorjanis analysis on the 2 major admixture signatures in north Indians vs only 1 in the south.

    Dienekes
    A second interesting finding of the paper is that admixture dates in Indo-European groups are later than in Dravidian groups. This is demonstrated quite clearly in the rolloff figure on the left. Moreover, it does not seem that the admixture times for Indo-Europeans coincide with the appearance of the Indo-Aryans, presumably during the 2nd millennium BC: they are much later. I believe that this is fairly convincing evidence that north India has been affected by subsequent population movements from central Asia of "Indo-Scythian"-related populations, for which there is ample historical evidence.

    After reading this, I'm confused further lol - the second admixture date in North Indians was more recent than IA arrival dates - parasar, this might support your Indo-Aryan is older in SA than R1a hypothesis
    Woah, that's interesting indeed. Which paper was Dienekes talking about? It looks like there was NO admixture during the 2nd Mellinium BC, but in the time of IndoScythian era.
    Last edited by poi; 01-13-2018 at 02:45 AM.

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    Watch this for the Andamanese languages and people



    http://www.andamanese.net/AnvitaAbbi.html

    Andamanese- English dictionary

    http://www.andamanese.net/dictionary.html
    Last edited by surbakhunWeesste; 01-13-2018 at 05:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Woah, that's interesting indeed. Which paper was Dienekes talking about? It looks like there was NO admixture during the 2nd Mellinium BC, but in the time of IndoScythian era.
    Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India

    Priya Moorjani et al.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/

    Let me know your thoughts
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-13-2018 at 03:23 AM.

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