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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #3681
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Are they talking about this male skeleton? I assume they were not successful in sequencing other skeletons?




    They were a tall couple for that time. The female in particular must have been an absolute giant in those days (unless IVC folks were taller in general).
    There are 3-4 samples in total, one was done in the Reich lab, the other 2-3 in Korea and Estonia afaik. One of them seem to be that outlier in Narsimhan figure because it looks very different from the main cluster found in Eastern Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    There are 3-4 samples in total, one was done in the Reich lab, the other 2-3 in Korea and Estonia afaik. One of them seem to be that outlier in Narsimhan figure because it looks very different from the main cluster found in Eastern Iran.
    Can you post/dump all the links, resources, graphics, text that you have on this? Thank you!

  3. #3683
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Can you post/dump all the links, resources, graphics, text that you have on this? Thank you!
    I have several times lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    I have several times lol
    I wish I could have a brain-dump from you. I'm interested in your blog style post on:

    1. IVC-proper from SouthAsia (AASI heavy)
    2. IVC-periphery from East Iran (IranN heavy)
    3. Post-IVC IndoAryan migration (Steppe + ANF heavy)

    I think those 3 topics cover the entirety of Tribal, Dravidian, IndoAryan South Asian genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    And we also know that Indo-Aryan was present at the latest by 1761 BC in Syria.
    "A recently discovered reference to mariannu in a letter from Tell Leilān in Northern Syria dating shortly before the end of Zimri-Lim’s reign in 1761 BCE (Eidem 2014: 142) extends the Indo-Aryan linguistic presence in Syria back two centuries prior to the formation of the Mitanni state. The word is generally seen as a Hurrianized form of the Indo-Aryan word *marya- (man/youth) (von Dassow 2008: 96–97 with literature) and taken to refer to a type of military personnel associated with chariot warfare across the Near East (eadem pp. 268–314)." Linguistic supplement to Damgaard et al. 2018: Early Indo-European languages, Anatolian, Tocharian and Indo-Iranian
    https://books.google.com/books?id=NuEsDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT546
    Gojko Barjamovic, Senior Lecturer on Assyriology, Harvard University:
    "we use evidence from the palatial archives of the ancient city of Ebla in Syria to argue that Indo-European was already spoken in modern-day Turkey in the 25th century BCE. This means that the speakers of these language must have arrived there prior to any Yamnaya expansions."

    Kristiansen et al.:

    "The personal names
    borne by individuals coming from the state of Armi in southern Anatolia
    attested in the archives as early as the 25th century BCE at Ebla (Archi 2011;
    Bonechi 1990) constitute a mixture of Semitic, Anatolian IE, and unknown
    background (Kroonen et al. 2018). A possible interpretation is that multiple
    groups moved into Anatolia from the Caucasus during the late 4th and early
    3rd millennia BCE, including groups of proto-Hurrian and early IE Anatolian
    speakers. Clear from the written record of Bronze Age Anatolia, however, is
    also that language was not considered an ethnic marker there and that the
    region is characterized by its high population mobility and plurality of
    languages and traditions."
    https://orbit.dtu.dk/files/185939664...herdersall.pdf

    Armi~Aleppo, Syria?

    "The location of Armi remains unknown and is debated (Archi 2011;
    Bonechi 2016). It was clearly a state with multiple urban centres and was in
    a position to control Ebla’s access to commodities that can be securely
    associated with the Anatolian highlands, chiefly metal."

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    Does anyone have any theories where all this excess ANE is coming from? Almost all South Asians are scoring it. Some even more than 10% on nMonte.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Does anyone have any theories where all this excess ANE is coming from? Almost all South Asians are scoring it. Some even more than 10% on nMonte.
    Couple of theories:
    1) It came directly during the paleolithic as mostly unmixed ANE/MA1 type ancestry
    2) There was some ANE-rich population somewhere to the west/northwest of S. Asia that mixed with Iran_N farmers on their way east. That'd also explain Sarazm eneolithic.
    3) Some ASE(Ancestral South Eurasian, which South Asians also score) is being picked up as ANE, as the latter descends from the former.
    4) A mix of all three of the above

    The only way to really know for sure is with ancients. If we find ancients that completely lack Iran_N but contain some ANE then we can say it came during the paleolithic for sure. At the same time we have the Botai culture which was contemporaneous with Sarazm Eneolithic that was heavily ANE/WSHG like, so #2 is plausible too.
    Last edited by Censored; 08-25-2019 at 08:36 PM.

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  10. #3688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Couple of theories:
    1) It came directly during the paleolithic as mostly unmixed ANE/MA1 type ancestry
    2) There was some ANE-rich population somewhere to the west/northwest of S. Asia that mixed with Iran_N farmers on their way east. That'd also explain Sarazm eneolithic.
    3) Some ASE(Ancestral South Eurasian, which South Asians also score) is being picked up as ANE, as the latter descends from the former.
    4) A mix of all three of the above

    The only way to really know for sure is with ancients. If we find ancients that completely lack Iran_N but contain some ANE then we can say it came during the paleolithic for sure. At the same time we have the Botai culture which was contemporaneous with Sarazm Eneolithic that was heavily ANE/WSHG like, so #2 is plausible too.
    AASI and ANE seem pretty divergent.
    "sample": "RUS_MA1:Average",
    "fit": 44.0242,
    "Simulated_AASI": 100,

    Also doesn't AASI come from the out of Africa event going into India 70kya. I am not sure how accurate this wikipedia article is. How many thousand years apart are ANE and AASI? 25k?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopling_of_India



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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    AASI and ANE seem pretty divergent.
    "sample": "RUS_MA1:Average",
    "fit": 44.0242,
    "Simulated_AASI": 100,

    Also doesn't AASI come from the out of Africa event going into India 70kya. I am not sure how accurate this wikipedia article is. How many thousand years apart are ANE and AASI? 25k?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopling_of_India


    I should not have made that third point...not because it may not be true but because I cannot fully resolve the relationships between such ancient groups in my head. I've been told repeatedly that ANE is derived from ASE(which I believe is connected to the first OOA wave that created AASI and aborigines). Which is very confusing as ANE leans towards west Eurasians.
    Last edited by Censored; 08-25-2019 at 09:02 PM.

  12. #3690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Couple of theories:
    1) It came directly during the paleolithic as mostly unmixed ANE/MA1 type ancestry
    2) There was some ANE-rich population somewhere to the west/northwest of S. Asia that mixed with Iran_N farmers on their way east. That'd also explain Sarazm eneolithic.
    3) Some ASE(Ancestral South Eurasian, which South Asians also score) is being picked up as ANE, as the latter descends from the former.
    4) A mix of all three of the above

    The only way to really know for sure is with ancients. If we find ancients that completely lack Iran_N but contain some ANE then we can say it came during the paleolithic for sure. At the same time we have the Botai culture which was contemporaneous with Sarazm Eneolithic that was heavily ANE/WSHG like, so #2 is plausible too.
    Sarazm did not get their extra ANE from Botai , Jeitun groups interacted mainly with remnants of what was the Keltiminar culture, Botai horse remains are not found in Tajikistan. Essentially its a mix of all 4 you stated but some groups seem to have direct ancestry from those Siberian groups living in the BA ( Rors and Kalash come to mind).

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