Page 293 of 293 FirstFirst ... 193243283291292293
Results 2,921 to 2,930 of 2930

Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #2921
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,145
    Location
    Gonur Tepe

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    insane levels of endogamy, esp considering the diverse range of samples in that area.

    Also, this Sindhi
    sample barely has any steppe ancestry
    Yeah overall Sindhi and other SW Pakistani groups have maintained a remarkable continuity with IVC as well as earlier Iran_N farmers, this Sindhi is easily 75-80% Iran_N . As well SiS 3 types would be common moving into present day India, and this type is quite common among many Indian groups ie Vellamas, Tamils ,Naidus, Reddy , and many are even more AASI shifted. I will tell Poi to model this modern day Sindhi and another Brahui. I would imagine the earliest Iran_N farmers would be on similar lines as this.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 60.88
    2 Caucasian 13.73
    3 SW-Asian 12.37
    4 S-Indian 6.16

    5 Siberian 1.98
    6 Mediterranean 1.83
    7 W-African 1.62
    8 Papuan 0.52
    9 E-African 0.43
    10 SE-Asian 0.34
    11 San 0.13

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to pegasus For This Useful Post:

     MonkeyDLuffy (Yesterday), Sapporo (Yesterday), tipirneni (Today)

  3. #2922
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,874
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post

    Also, this Sindhi sample barely has any steppe ancestry
    why are you using the NE European component of an old calculator based on moderns as a proxy for the various MLBA and IA populations that existed across the steppe. Why not use one that is based on actual aDNA and has various MLBA and IA steppe components, because if you do you will not conclude that Sindhis “barely” have steppe ancestry.

    Even the Balochi component is not accurate since actual Balochis, Pashtuns, Kurds, and Persians score less of it (high 20s and 30s) than C or S Indians. Good calculator oracles don’t necessarily translate into accurate admixture proportions.


    EDIT: NE Europeans may have substantial steppe ancestry from some W Steppe populations, but this does NOT make them the real deal; ie actual Sintashta, Andronovo, Hun, Indo-Saka, and other Eurasian MLBA/IA steppe groups.
    Last edited by Kurd; Yesterday at 03:23 PM.
    EurasianDNA.com - A study of the population history of West & South Asia.

  4. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     ffoucart (Yesterday), kingjohn (Yesterday), MonkeyDLuffy (Yesterday), parasar (Yesterday), thorin (Yesterday), tipirneni (Yesterday)

  5. #2923
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,523

    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    It gives me such pleasure to see that I have the luck to discover more and more, what hypotheses you hold. Your ideas are very interesting and many times are quite mind-blowing to me. Your stressing of the phenomenon of possible sanskritisation (and hyper-sanskritisation when at it, in some cases) of certain Prakritic terms of civilisation, personal names, etc. is very striking. There may be a lot of truth in it. But it appears to me there are some things that are not considered yet.

    1. Your evidence to point to Prakritic origins of words like Candragupta's name, Priyadarshi (Ashoka)'s name, etc. is quite compelling (it may already be the default and well-acknowledged position in linguistics after all for all I know (and I don't seem to have any accessible resources to check right now) which is really meagre when it comes to Indo-Aryan linguistics- especially the interactions between Vedic Sanskrit, what are called "Vedic Prakrits" (the dialects of non-High Vedic Sanskrit hypothesised as having the most direct ancestral features of Pali and Prakrits that seem to be more archaic IE features compared to High Vedic Sanskrit ones) and Early Prakrits), but these words are of the Janapada time period and later. Could you list some more examples, if any exist, for earlier periods? You may argue that there is no much scope to find such evidence because Greek and other outside contact began only after a certain point of time in the second half of first millennium BC, which is very fine. Just thought it may be worthwhile to see if you are aware of any other types of indications that point to this and any available research in that direction (I'm feeling quite lazy to do it, sorry- please do try forgive my conduct), in addition to the direct evidence from outside sources like Greeks.

    2. Now comes the 'cotton' word. This would have belonged to the category of the evidence I requested in 1 (in fact very strong) if not for the following objections (that I can think of, so there should be better criticisms of your post from more knowledgeable people):
    a. It's a word of advanced civilisation and trade and has high potential to be a Wanderwort.
    b. Presence of evidence in favour of the existence of other possible source languages- I googled "kapazum" and I quite remarkably easily landed on the Google Books page for Edwin Bryant's "The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference in Indian History" and within it, a chapter authored by Koenraad Elst titled "The Aryan Non-Invasion Theory". On page 267, he mentions that the "Austro-Asiatic" (by which he means Munda? Or is Proto-Austroasiatic considered to have had the relevant (ancestral) word?) 'cotton' word is *kapas (appears to have been reconstructed from Munda linguistic evidence). I don't have accessible resources to check if the Munda reconstruction still stands today but considering it is correct, it gives us another possible direct source other than the Prakrits as proposed by you, for the loanword in Sumerian- Munda.
    (b1. It is possible that Munda and Sumerian both got it from (one of the) extinct Indus language(s)- if Indus was not directly or indirectly Munda-speaking. But to argue this viewpoint is methodologically not very sound and I'm of course not doing it- just mentioning my own speculative thought.)
    c. The IA word does not seem to be IE descendant also- I googled "proto-indo-european cotton" and landed on David Anthony's "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World" on Google Books. On page 86, he confirms my suspicion by informing that PIE reconstruction does not have the relevant ancestral word for 'cotton' (rather any word for 'cotton'). I don't know if PII or such other ancestral forms had it but Turner's IA etymological dictionary seems to say that this word is borrowed from Austroasiatic.

    ...
    I doubt it was borrowed from Austroasiatic, since Austrosiatic regions did not have cotton in the Sumer timeframe. Furthermore almost every Austroasitic, Austronesian, and Dravidian language has the kapas form indicating a spread to these languages/regions from a single source of origin - the Indus area.

    Or alternatively, we have to lend credence to Witzel's proposition that the Indus Valley was Autroasiatic. As far I can see from genetics, at least that proposal is not being sustained. No Y-O was found in the Indus samples and the mt was (perhaps to some surprisingly) low in M. Of course the one result from Rakhigarhi may differ.

    We have carbasus in Latin for lint and karpasos in Greek for flax. While the earlier Sumerian form is Prakritic, these later attested forms are Sanskritic.

    Further back on this thread we saw the proposition enunciated that anything not in Sanskrit, but present in the PIE reconstruction, was lost and in the former, and anything present in Sanskrit but nor seen in the reconstruction was borrowed into Sanskrit.

    As far as other examples of early Prakritic forms would be satta (for sapta), Indar (for Indra) in Mitanni. These Witzel thinks are artifacts of transliteration, adapting to Hurrian.
    Last edited by parasar; Yesterday at 07:07 PM.

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     anthroin (Yesterday), bmoney (Today), MonkeyDLuffy (Today), tipirneni (Today)

  7. #2924
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,652
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Indus Valley
    Y-DNA
    L1a1
    mtDNA
    M30

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    why are you using the NE European component of an old calculator based on moderns as a proxy for the various MLBA and IA populations that existed across the steppe. Why not use one that is based on actual aDNA and has various MLBA and IA steppe components, because if you do you will not conclude that Sindhis “barely” have steppe ancestry.

    Even the Balochi component is not accurate since actual Balochis, Pashtuns, Kurds, and Persians score less of it (high 20s and 30s) than C or S Indians. Good calculator oracles don’t necessarily translate into accurate admixture proportions.


    EDIT: NE Europeans may have substantial steppe ancestry from some W Steppe populations, but this does NOT make them the real deal; ie actual Sintashta, Andronovo, Hun, Indo-Saka, and other Eurasian MLBA/IA steppe groups.
    Actual steppe ancestry is proportionally higher than this component indicates, I never indicated otherwise, my comment was in relation to other SAs

    However, the NE Euro and Med component correlates with Western/European steppe ancestry in South Asians

    The higher the NE Euro component a sample scores in this calc relative to others, the higher Euro steppe component (such as Sintashta MLBA) they get in other calculators, nmontes etc again relative to others

    If the sample had actual European ancestry this correlation would not apply

    I've yet to see exceptions to this but would change my position if I did.

    Also refer to my quoted text, I referred to that Sindhi sample in particular not Sindhis in general
    Last edited by bmoney; Today at 01:39 AM.
    Ancients nmonte: [1] "distance%=2.5068": Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,80, Srubnaya_MLBA,12.6, Hajji_Firuz_Chl,6.8, Dai,0.6

    SC Asian ancients with the same uniparental lines:
    Y-dna: BMAC Bustan_BA K1a1 L1a, BMAC Sappali_Tepe_BA U7a3 L1a, Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all L1a, Loebanr_IA_father T2g1 L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA R30b1 L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA L1a, Saidu Sharif_IA R6b L1a
    Mtdna: Butkara_IA M30b J1, Butkara_IA M30b, Udegram_IA M30+16234, Saidu_Sharif_IA M30, Saidu_Sharif_IA M30d1

  8. #2925
    Registered Users
    Posts
    171

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I doubt it was borrowed from Austroasiatic, since Austrosiatic regions did not have cotton in the Sumer timeframe. Furthermore almost every Austroasitic, Austronesian, and Dravidian language has the kapas form indicating a spread to these languages/regions from a single source of origin - the Indus area.

    Or alternatively, we have to lend credence to Witzel's proposition that the Indus Valley was Autroasiatic. As far I can see from genetics, at least that proposal is not being sustained. No Y-O was found in the Indus samples and the mt was (perhaps to some surprisingly) low in M. Of course the one result from Rakhigarhi may differ.

    We have carbasus in Latin for lint and karpasos in Greek for flax. While the earlier Sumerian form is Prakritic, these later attested forms are Sanskritic.

    Further back on this thread we saw the proposition enunciated that anything not in Sanskrit, but present in the PIE reconstruction, was lost and in the former, and anything present in Sanskrit but nor seen in the reconstruction was borrowed into Sanskrit.

    As far as other examples of early Prakritic forms would be satta (for sapta), Indar (for Indra) in Mitanni. These Witzel thinks are artifacts of transliteration, adapting to Hurrian.
    (It does not have any bearing on the matter but could you give me any more information about the Dravidian 'cotton' words in the form of *kapas/*kapa, etc.? Because, all along, I was under the impression that Dravidian rather funnily has its own word for 'cotton' which at least phonologically does not appear to be connected to the likely Indus *kapa type word. The word I'm talking about is, *par-u-tt-i (Tamil parutti, Telugu pratti, etc.) at DEDR 3976, and it is reconstructible to Proto-South-Dravidian at least. There is another at DEDR 3383 *tUti [tUdi] which is present in a fewer languages (just the South Dravidian-I Kota, Kannada and South Dravidian-II Telugu and Gondi) with the meaning 'silk-cotton tree'. This is also not of the form *kapa. The only thing that may be relevant to the issue having a form *kap I found is at DEDR 1452: CDr. Parji kAp 'small piece of cloth covering the privities', SDr-II. Kui kApa 'diaper'. I don't know if this above is really related to the Indus word under question. I kind of thought that Dravidian somehow calqued the Indus word at an ancient point in time but we cannot prove it and construct the derivation of the calque of course unless we know the etymology of the Indus word in the language in which it was coined. Another possibility is that Dravidian got it from some other obscure early language having its own word for 'cotton'.)

    Regarding Munda/Para-Munda Indus, I don't have any strong opinions (much like I don't have with others also in fact, except perhaps Dravidian for which Gujarat and Maharashtra or indeed the south Deccan (the latter decreasingly so) seem a better fit to me personally; the Munda/Para-Munda idea seems less likely to me though personally on account of the genetic evidence that we have been seeing and you noted, and also on the basis of the currently unknown nature of a significant percentage of the 300 or so non-Indo-European words in Rigveda currently unexplained from Burushaski, Dravidian and Munda sources); I just noted that the source of the Sumerian word cannot be recognised as Indo-Aryan by default- considering that the linguists determined that the Indo-Aryan word itself is borrowed from some source; even if it's not Munda. One possibility I can see is that Indus was Indo-Aryan but not always. It perhaps came there quite a bit earlier than currently thought but after a 'cotton' word was established in one of the languages earlier to Indo-Aryan which may have been anything, but one that's distinct to Indo-European, as far as we can see. Another is to vigorously try to obtain an etymology for this word from Indo-European roots. Now people may laugh off at this paragraph but yeah, I personally do believe strongly in the power of linguistics when it comes to this business. Please don't hang me.

    Actually, I think you could better rely on the IIr/IA words like satta, etc. in Mitanni compared to the 'cotton' word to direct attention to the possibility of early "Prakritic" or linguistically close-by Indus. I say this because, after a rather long discussion of the 'seven' word in indology.info forum, no proper explanation was obtained for this. In fact, if anything, the opinions of the Hurrian expert in the discussion seemed to me to indicate that Mitanni IIr/IA loanword satta, 'seven' could not have arisen as a result of Hurrian influence on PII/PIA/OIA *sapta! I remember linguist Hans Hock saying somewhere (either in that discussion or in his 2016 book) that -pt- to -tt- change is quite commonplace and could have taken place independently in the Indo-Iranian/Indo-Aryan of Mitanni loanwords. This explanation is quite unpalatable to many of us and is not very definitive also (though it is reasonable and quite possible), so you can ignore it. Anyway, I personally hate Ancient Near Eastern syllabic scripts with all my heart so I won't go into the Mitanni business in much depth.
    Last edited by anthroin; Today at 12:37 AM.

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to anthroin For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (Today), parasar (Today), tipirneni (Today)

  10. #2926
    Registered Users
    Posts
    59
    Location
    NYC
    Ethnicity
    Sindhi
    Nationality
    American

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    insane levels of endogamy, esp considering the diverse range of samples in that area.
    I'm not seeing a particularly diverse range of samples from Sindh. There are really only 2 variations within Sindhi samples with the primary difference being that one set trades some of the Baloch component for NE-Euro. Keep in mind that even the NE-Euro shifted Sindhis seldom hit over 10%.

    In terms of actual steppe ancestry, all Sindhis are within the range of other non-Jat NW south Asians such as Gujjars and Arains, while the NE-euro shifted Sindhis approach the same levels as Punjabi khatris.

    Endogamy in Sindh is not particularly rigid. The main reason it exists at all is primarily due to practical reasons such as the common practice of 'bride-price' in rural Sindh. A young Sindhi of limited means is much more likely to be able to afford a bride from his own tribe (or often, extended family). The middle-class and/or wealthy Sindhis, on the other hand, can and do marry across tribes quite regularly although religious differences still prevent Hindu-Muslim marriages.
    Last edited by heksindhi; Today at 01:23 AM.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to heksindhi For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (Today)

  12. #2927
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,652
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Indus Valley
    Y-DNA
    L1a1
    mtDNA
    M30

    Quote Originally Posted by heksindhi View Post
    I'm not seeing a particularly diverse range of samples from Sindh. There are really only 2 variations within Sindhi samples with the primary difference being that one set trades some of the Baloch component for NE-Euro. Keep in mind that even the NE-Euro shifted Sindhis seldom hit over 10%.

    In terms of actual steppe ancestry, all Sindhis are within the range of other non-Jat NW south Asians such as Gujjars and Arains, while the NE-euro shifted Sindhis approach the same levels as Punjabi khatris.

    Endogamy in Sindh is not particularly rigid. The primary reason it exists at all is primarily due to practical reasons such as the common practice of 'bride-price' in rural Sindh. A young Sindhi of limited means is much more likely to be able to afford a bride from his own tribe (or often, extended family). The middle and/or wealthy Sindhis, on the other hand, can and do marry across tribes quite regularly although religious differences still prevent Hindu-Muslim marriages.
    I meant ancient IVC-like samples showing significant cross-subcontinental levels variation such as SIS BA1, BA2 BA3 etc and some of the Swat outliers, referring to the NW region.

    Some of the groups such as SIS BA2 have hardly mixed with BA3 types in thousands of years despite being neighbours, BA3 being somewhat represented by modern PJL in the area. Hence the comment about continuity

    And for NE Euro I particularly referred to the sample Pegasus posted which is lower than the reference range for Sindhis

    HAP has two sets of Sindhi samples, one with 9% average NE Euro (HGDP) similar to Khatris as you mentioned, and one with 6% (HAP) the same as most southern Brahmin references
    Last edited by bmoney; Today at 01:31 AM.
    Ancients nmonte: [1] "distance%=2.5068": Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,80, Srubnaya_MLBA,12.6, Hajji_Firuz_Chl,6.8, Dai,0.6

    SC Asian ancients with the same uniparental lines:
    Y-dna: BMAC Bustan_BA K1a1 L1a, BMAC Sappali_Tepe_BA U7a3 L1a, Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all L1a, Loebanr_IA_father T2g1 L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA R30b1 L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA L1a, Saidu Sharif_IA R6b L1a
    Mtdna: Butkara_IA M30b J1, Butkara_IA M30b, Udegram_IA M30+16234, Saidu_Sharif_IA M30, Saidu_Sharif_IA M30d1

  13. #2928
    Registered Users
    Posts
    127
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I doubt it was borrowed from Austroasiatic, since Austrosiatic regions did not have cotton in the Sumer timeframe. Furthermore almost every Austroasitic, Austronesian, and Dravidian language has the kapas form indicating a spread to these languages/regions from a single source of origin - the Indus area.

    Or alternatively, we have to lend credence to Witzel's proposition that the Indus Valley was Autroasiatic. As far I can see from genetics, at least that proposal is not being sustained. No Y-O was found in the Indus samples and the mt was (perhaps to some surprisingly) low in M. Of course the one result from Rakhigarhi may differ.

    We have carbasus in Latin for lint and karpasos in Greek for flax. While the earlier Sumerian form is Prakritic, these later attested forms are Sanskritic.

    Further back on this thread we saw the proposition enunciated that anything not in Sanskrit, but present in the PIE reconstruction, was lost and in the former, and anything present in Sanskrit but nor seen in the reconstruction was borrowed into Sanskrit.

    As far as other examples of early Prakritic forms would be satta (for sapta), Indar (for Indra) in Mitanni. These Witzel thinks are artifacts of transliteration, adapting to Hurrian.
    Actually Witzel proposes a para-munda speaking Indus, which means not really austro-asiatic but some simillarities to it, and perhaps very distantly related to it

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Vaishvamitra For This Useful Post:

     anthroin (Today)

  15. #2929
    Registered Users
    Posts
    59
    Location
    NYC
    Ethnicity
    Sindhi
    Nationality
    American

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    I meant ancient IVC-like samples showing significant cross-subcontinental levels variation such as SIS BA1, BA2 BA3 etc and some of the Swat outliers, referring to the NW region.

    Some of the groups such as SIS BA2 have hardly mixed with BA3 types in thousands of years despite being neighbours, BA3 being somewhat represented by modern PJL in the area. Hence the comment about continuity
    is SiS1 supposed to be representative of IVC? - the only South Asian group that comes close to SiS1 are the Baloch/Brahui and they appear to have migrated east from South-Eastern Iran (probably not too far from Shahr-i-Sokhteh) within the last millennium.

    I think the lack of mixture with SiS3 in Sindh is most likely due, not so much to strict endogamy, but rather the physical barriers of the Thar desert to the east and the Rann of Kutch to the south. The only easy ingress to Sindh is from Baluchestan in the West as well as the North. The Multan region on the North-East is historically linked to Sindh and, at various times, was a part of Sindh. The people of that region appear to be very similar to Sindhis in terms of genetics.

    And for NE Euro I particularly referred to the sample Pegasus posted which is lower than the reference range for Sindhis
    Probably just an indication that this sample is from a region/tribe that is proximal to a Baloch-like population.
    Last edited by heksindhi; Today at 02:51 AM.

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to heksindhi For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (Today), tipirneni (Today)

  17. #2930
    Registered Users
    Posts
    171

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishvamitra View Post
    Actually Witzel proposes a para-munda speaking Indus, which means not really austro-asiatic but some simillarities to it, and perhaps very distantly related to it
    If you don't mind me intruding here sir, how does the current genetic evidence so far (all West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups in Central Asia and Swat valley) figure with the Para-Munda/Para-Austroasiatic hypothesis? Is it kind of a given that the relevant O is the only suitable candidate for the first bearers of Austroasiatic languages (or Para-Austroasiatic languages) and none others should have it? And the Urheimat hypotheses of the known Austroasiatic languages place it in southern China or the Mekong river basin of Southeast Asia, correct? How does that figure here? Where would the origin of the Indus Austroasiatic-like language be and how separated in time would it be from Proto-Austroasiatic if it was indeed that? There is also the intriguing Sumerian-Munda hypothesis by Igor Diakonoff though it appears to be enjoying no much scholarly support and also is only one in the list of all the other wildly disparate language families that Sumerian has been connected to. Witzel's river name etymologies of Vaishambhalya (apparently one of the earlier names of Ghaggar-Hakra or Saraswati), etc. from this Para-Munda seemed interesting though I cannot evaluate it at all, owing to my lack of knowledge of Munda linguistics.

Page 293 of 293 FirstFirst ... 193243283291292293

Similar Threads

  1. mtDNA C in South Asia
    By soulblighter in forum C
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 02-15-2018, 01:07 AM
  2. South Asia Y-DNA Distribution
    By Mehrdad in forum Other
    Replies: 94
    Last Post: 04-17-2015, 06:39 AM
  3. South Asia (Punjab) stuff
    By Dr_McNinja in forum General Sociology/Ethnology
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-21-2014, 03:48 PM
  4. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-16-2014, 10:21 AM
  5. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-26-2013, 08:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •