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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #1061
    There are none Greeks there (especially not Minoans or Mycenaeans who didn't have the admixture from Slavs they have today) nor does it distinguish between South Italians and other Italians.

  2. #1062
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poldo View Post
    And you failed to show they would be significantly darker than a Mycenaean Greek.
    What is 'significantly' dark? Thresholds would be nice.

  3. #1063
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    But genetics has not proven a bronze age migration into South Asia. What aDNA has shown is that all those archaeological and linguistic models of Western scholars have failed. Those models were very poorly developed in the first place.
    Just because you claim that, it does not become true. Actually the exact opposite is true. aDNA has shown, that many Indians carry a y-dna marker found in Neolithic/Mesolithic Ukraine and Russia with zero south asian admixture. Just get, that there is no R1a in South Asia today, which is not R1a-M417 like Sredny Stog. Actually almost all South Asians belong to Z93, which is even much younger than M417.

    According to archaeological models proposed by the likes of Kuzmina & Anthony, Sintashta & Andronovo should have been the proto- Indo-Iranian cultures. But genetics has shown this to be most unlikely. The steppe_MLBA is not a good admixture source even for the Scythians. According to linguistics, Indo-Iranians were the last to leave or stay in the PIE homeland. So if the steppe was the PIE homeland, the Indo-Iranians should have hovered around until 2000 BC and received a good chunk of EEF ancestry. Unfortunately modern South Asians do not have any EEF ancestry and are more similar to the Yamnaya, who according to Linguistic/archaeological model were the PIE, then to the later steppe cultures. This should tell you how hopeless the steppe model is.
    What is your point ? Genetics have actually shown that. Sintashta and Andronovo carry Z2124 exact like modern day Pashtuns, Tajiks and Tatars/Turks(descendants of Scythians/Sarmatians). Yeah Indo-Aryan L657 was not found among Sintashta and Andronovo yet, but we just got ancient dna from northeastern Andronovo and nothing from Abashevo or southern Andronovo, where L657 will probably found sooner or later, if more remains get tested. It is absolutely irrelevant, if modern South Asians carry much or no EEF . Modern day South Asians are a very mixed population and maybe have very low direct steppe ancestry. We don't have ancient dna from South Asia yet, so we can not exclude , that they carry much Indo-Aryan y-dna but low steppe autosomal dna. Modern day Basques carry more steppe y-dna than Russians but have obviously much less steppe autosomal dna, so autosomal and y-dna must not generally correlate with each other. Also it is possible that early EEF-rich Indo-Iranians mixed much with Yamnaya/Poltavka so that their autosomal dna became very yamnaya-like before they arrived in South Asia, that would explain why South Asians seem to be closer to Yamnaya than to Sintashta or Andronovo.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 12-02-2017 at 11:47 PM.

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  5. #1064
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    NO way, Yamnaya has waaaaay too much ANE for any Northern/Western European group, these are people who are 50-52% ANE, any modern Northern European barely crosses 20%. Also Yamnaya ancestry is inflated for most North Europeans because of their Scandinavian hunter gatherer ancestry.
    While they are attempts to Europeanize them, they are their own entity. To me 2 groups stick out Kalash/Nuristani and North Caucasians/Lezgins, especially the later, since well they originate from around that region. It makes sense as well both groups are ANE rich and have tonne of that teal (ie CHG-Zagrosian component).
    Last edited by pegasus; 12-02-2017 at 11:58 PM.

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  7. #1065
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poldo View Post
    And you failed to show they would be significantly darker than a Mycenaean Greek.
    You clearly look like another troll. Their SNPs clearly show these people as quite swarthy, skin tone wise they are comparable with modern West Asians if not darker. Granted I am sure there was a variation, as is with any population, their samples clearly show them darker than Southern Europeans.
    Last edited by pegasus; 12-03-2017 at 12:11 AM.

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  9. #1066
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    There is no BMAC substratum in Sanskrit. Only a few loan words in all of Sanskrit corpus are thought (not attested) to have been borrowed from BMAC. For example, as there are no equivalents to ooth (camel) and indar (chief) in European languages it is assume that Ustra (present in Bactria Margiana, India, West Asia, etc.) and Indra (present in Mitanni) respectively were borrowed from a BMAC language into Sanskrit. Interestingly, not only did the Rg Ved borrow indar, it made the Indra a chief subject matter! See just the chapters on Indra in Book 1 - http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rvi01.htm - 56 chapters.

    See also: ""I drive away Indra, I drive away Sauru [Sarva], I drive away the daeva Naunghaithya [Nasatya]" ... Indra, Sauru, Naunghaithya, Tauru, and Zairi are (with Akemmano [Akoman], here replaced by the Nasu), the six chief demons, and stand to the Amesha Spentas in the same relation as Angra Mainyu to Spenta Mainyu. Indra opposes Asha Vahishta and turns men's hearts from good works; Sauru opposes Khshathra Vairya, he presides over bad government; Naunghaithya opposes Spenta Armaiti, he is the demon of discontent; Tauru and Zairi oppose Haurvatat and Ameretat and poison the waters and the plants. -- Akem-mano, Bad Thought, opposes Vohu-mano, Good Thought." http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd10sbe.htm
    Point is ,the influence is there, so its not like Indo Aryan groups by passed them, to what degree they intermingled remains to be seen but inferring from what I saw with some of the Iranian groups, Neolithic Iranian ancestry went up ( which actually seemed counter intuitive to me , esp if you look at the Iron age Iranian), so its possible as well dumping Steppe, Indo Aryans dumped more Iran_N ancestry. The Swat sample is the equivalent of the Iranian Yaz, so once they find both these genomes it will be more accurate in modelling. Its all complicated by the fact the BMAC's biggest trading partner is the IVC, and its possible you have hybrid IVC/BMAC cultures .
    I mean they have an IVC trading town in Northern Afghanistan.
    http://afghandata.org:8080/jspui/bit...n68_1981_w.pdf
    Last edited by pegasus; 12-03-2017 at 12:31 AM.

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  11. #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poldo View Post
    As in not out of place. Can pass as a native.



    You say that, yet PCAs (including one by Mathieson et al.) show European populations to be nearer to them than MENA to South Asian ones.



    Lezgins and other North Caucasians are hardly darker than Ancient Greeks or modern South Italians. See:

    http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5422594/1/

    http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5997204/1/
    "Passing as a native " sounds like we are discussing the anthropological observations of Carleton Coon lol. But not according to the SNP data. Cherry picking jpgs online is an exercise in futility imo.

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  13. #1068
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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    They were certainly darker than those populations as per Mathieson et al. (2015). Light pigmentation we see in moderns was selected for over time, but PIE did not look like any modern living populations (Lazaridis also stated this in twitter) they only exist as admixture across Eurasia in various groups.

    Below : Here you can compare Yamnaya 'B' with moderns 'C' in terms pigmentation, lactose, and other alleles. Moderns are much lighter, very light infact, unlike Yamnaya.

    I have more accurate genotype data on Yamna_I0231, since the published ones were pseudo-haploid, whereas I dipolid genotyped it (since humans are diploid, the published one has one wrong allele for every position the actual Yamna sample was hetrozygous. We could be talking about 30% of the genome ).

    Fortunately, I genotyped over 2 million positions in I0231, thus I should have more than the 2 pigmentation alleles shown in the graph; rs1426654 and rs16891982. I believe I have at least 10 pigmentation SNPs for I0231, so that combined with the fact that I have actual diploid positions means I can do a much more accurate pigmentation assessment than using just the 2 SNPs in the graph.

    I will post the results within the hour

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    I checked the 2 SNPs they used. Good news is they got those right, since I show AA for rs1426654 and CG for rs16891982. Since they are showing 100% derived allele frequency and we know the ancestral allele is C for rs1426654, the inference is that their samples were AA s for that position which is in agreement with what I have.

    Here is the kicker, rs1426654 is one of the most important alleles for pigmentation. About 100% of Europeans and W Asians are fixed for the derived version of allele (ie AA). The ancestral form CC and AC is found mostly in S Asians and Africans, and this SNP carries alot more weight than rs16891982 which honestly contributes much less to pigmentation than the other one.

    So Yamna is AA there, which is shown as 100% derived, just like all Europeans. So based on this one alone Yamnaya is light, but with the other one it is CG like most W Asians, so a little darker than most Europeans.

    That is why we need more pigmentation SNPs for a verdict, and luckily I found 9 for Yamna from the sequence I genotyped. Verdict coming shortly...

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    I went ahead and extracted the pigmentation SNPs for Srubna_I0232 and EHG_I0061, since I had diploid genotyped those as well, and someone may want to have this data for future reference.

    Unfortunately, it looks like the prediction with 9 SNPs is the same as what they have namely light. The lightest pigmented appears to be EHG and the darkest Srubna I0232

    For Yamna their graph shows 100% derived for rs1426654 which basically means AA, which is like all Europeans and the vast majority of W Asians, namely light. Again this SNP contributes alot to pigmentation. S Asians and Africans have the ancestral; either AC or CC, which is a big reason they are dark.

    They have Yamna at 40% derived for rs16891982, which basically means CG. like most W Asians. Unfortunately this SNP contributes a small amount to darker pigmentation.

    Here are the rest of the SNPs. Prediction in a few minutes

    SNPs Yamnaya_I0231 Srubna-I0232 EHG-I0061
    rs10777129 GG AG GG
    rs13289 CG GG CG
    rs1408799 TC TC TC
    rs1426654 AA AA AA
    rs1448484 NN NN NN
    rs16891982 CG CG CG
    rs2402130 AG AA AA
    rs3829241 AG GG AA
    rs6058017 AA AA NN
    rs6119471 CC CC CC

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