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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #1041
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Actually there is its called genetics. You are projecting your own insecurities and bias on to this. I am usually the first to target Eurocentric BS but you are no less either. The fact you seem so perturbed speaks volumes about your insecurities.
    But genetics has not proven a bronze age migration into South Asia. What aDNA has shown is that all those archaeological and linguistic models of Western scholars have failed. Those models were very poorly developed in the first place.

    According to archaeological models proposed by the likes of Kuzmina & Anthony, Sintashta & Andronovo should have been the proto- Indo-Iranian cultures. But genetics has shown this to be most unlikely. The steppe_MLBA is not a good admixture source even for the Scythians. According to linguistics, Indo-Iranians were the last to leave or stay in the PIE homeland. So if the steppe was the PIE homeland, the Indo-Iranians should have hovered around until 2000 BC and received a good chunk of EEF ancestry. Unfortunately modern South Asians do not have any EEF ancestry and are more similar to the Yamnaya, who according to Linguistic/archaeological model were the PIE, then to the later steppe cultures. This should tell you how hopeless the steppe model is.

    Yet you continue to believe that it is correct and that alternative models by Indians are only fit to ridicule. You have no knowledge of Indian history but you try to dismiss the alternative viewpoints by Indians scholars as that of crazy Hindu nationalists. It is part of our history and we have the legitimate right to object to what we believe is a misrepresentation and misinterpretation of our history. If you are not willing to listen and are just intent to make snide remarks without really refuting anything, well then, just STFU.

    And so far there has been no aDNA from South Asia. Yet you are happy making prediction of a steppe migration into South Asia, and if we Indians object, we do so because obviously we are Hindu nationalists. What an eloquent argument !

    By the way, the existing aDNA data can also be interpreted through the following admixture tree.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8X...dCclJ5bkk/view

    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    a Yamnaya like population definitely came through and its possible there was a yet to be discovered earlier pre Steppe population in Central Asia which has affinities for Yamnaya, ultimately the group which brought the proto Sanskrit,
    And your above argument is based on what exactly ? Any concrete proofs at your disposal that you might wish to share ? I am willing to listen and respond to it. I certainly wont be haughty and dismissive.

    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    they are not from Haryana or anywhere in Northern India.
    And the above is based on what exactly ? The Indo-Europeans are certainly from the regions of Haryana, Punjab & Western UP in modern India. Genetics will prove it. And you may explain how the IE are not from Haryana or anywhere in North India. Go ahead. Let us see if you will respond or cop out.

    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The rest of your comments are bizarre and beneath me to respond to.
    You also did not respond to this

    There is no archaeological evidence to prove any Steppe migration into South Asia. Even the high priest of the PIE steppe hypotheses, Mallory, has admitted as much. The proposed Indo-Iranian precursors on the steppe, the Sintashta & Andronovo have EEF content which is clearly lacking in South Asians thus making them unsuitable as a source population for admixture in South Asians. Yet you will only believe the meagre and questionable evidence put up by the likes of Kuzmina & Anthony.
    Mallory's mentor, Gimbutas, when she proposed the PIE steppe theory in the 50s was not making the connection based on some archaeological study of 2nd millennium Indian sites, she was purely making a case for Bronze Age steppe migration into Europe. So how does the steppe become a PIE homeland without proving migration into South Asia ? This is a symptom of a very Euro-centric approach to this discipline.
    Is this also beneath you to respond ? Or you simply have no good answer to it.
    Last edited by Immchr; 12-02-2017 at 01:19 PM.

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  3. #1042
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    I'm just reading his blog, a quick question, is he supporter of out of India theory? because seems like he is claiming IE languages came from North India, not from eurasian steppes.
    Yes he is. And if you read his bog carefully, you'll realise that he is quite a good scholar.

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  5. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Northern Pakistan to the Potohar plateau, YES, but Gangetic plains, absolutely not. Well the geography painted and the constant battles do not look like Northern India, it honestly looks like the world from Sarianidi's excavations. Earthen mound forts are definitely not IVC, they had sophisticated walled cities. Thought it seems difficult to digest, the limes of these people and the Rig Ved is definitely not in the Ganges region, even though that area holds prominence now in contemporary Hinduism.
    Where did you find earthern mound forts in Rigveda ? Care to quote me the verse ?

    And your knowledge of Indian geography is also quite hopeless. Haryana & Western UP is not exactly Gangetic plains. It just skirts it on its eastern side. And in case you want some archaeological correspondences in the Indus Valley with references in Rigveda, help youself -

    https://www.academia.edu/10187944/Ho...h_at_Dholavira

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...1481b05788.pdf
    Last edited by Immchr; 12-02-2017 at 02:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Immchr View Post
    Yes he is. And if you read his bog carefully, you'll realise that he is quite a good scholar.
    He might be a good scholar, I'll go over his blog during the my day off, but I have hard time taking anyone seriously who believes in out of India theory. And no I dont believe in Eurocentric view either.

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  8. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    He might be a good scholar, I'll go over his blog during the my day off, but I have hard time taking anyone seriously who believes in out of India theory. And no I dont believe in Eurocentric view either.
    Unless you come to know of one's argument how can you be dismissive of it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    They did not bypass the BMAC because there is a BMAC substratum in Sanskrit, as well you see a marked increase in BMAC pottery styles ( no Petrovka ) .
    There are some Bangladeshi who do have legit Pashtun ancestry via Pashtuns in Northern India, but its quite limited and honestly a drop in the bucket overall, also those groups are largely Indianized . Also Pashtuns are a complex group to be honest. Those Afridi, Shinwari, Khattak, Yousafzai Pashtuns cline near to upper caste Indo Aryan neighbours compared to say Pashtuns from Kandahar or Oruzgan, who are more Iranian shifted. Also most Pashtuns in Bengal region are mostly in the Indian side, and they largely marry girls from their villages. I would say within India and Bangladesh the group I noticed which was striking were Pashtuns from Maler Kotla, who originate from the Kandahar region and have been largely endogamous.
    There is no BMAC substratum in Sanskrit. Only a few loan words in all of Sanskrit corpus are thought (not attested) to have been borrowed from BMAC. For example, as there are no equivalents to ooth (camel) and indar (chief) in European languages it is assume that Ustra (present in Bactria Margiana, India, West Asia, etc.) and Indra (present in Mitanni) respectively were borrowed from a BMAC language into Sanskrit. Interestingly, not only did the Rg Ved borrow indar, it made the Indra a chief subject matter! See just the chapters on Indra in Book 1 - http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rvi01.htm - 56 chapters.

    See also: ""I drive away Indra, I drive away Sauru [Sarva], I drive away the daeva Naunghaithya [Nasatya]" ... Indra, Sauru, Naunghaithya, Tauru, and Zairi are (with Akemmano [Akoman], here replaced by the Nasu), the six chief demons, and stand to the Amesha Spentas in the same relation as Angra Mainyu to Spenta Mainyu. Indra opposes Asha Vahishta and turns men's hearts from good works; Sauru opposes Khshathra Vairya, he presides over bad government; Naunghaithya opposes Spenta Armaiti, he is the demon of discontent; Tauru and Zairi oppose Haurvatat and Ameretat and poison the waters and the plants. -- Akem-mano, Bad Thought, opposes Vohu-mano, Good Thought." http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd10sbe.htm

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  11. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Cemetary H is in the Potohar, a region I mentioned already being part of the Rig Ved, its assumed its a fusion culture and/or an offshoot of late IVC. This is again is the same trap I am noticing, people are equating Vedic religion with the world around the Ganges when its really a product of the Gandhara region. Abashevo and Sintashta/Androvono in particular all practiced cremation btw, esp the later. BMAC are still largely Near Eastern influenced. Anyways my point is the "EARLY" Rig Ved does give a snapshot of Central Asia. Its mid and latter section basically is NW South Asia, spanning Northern Pakistan into the Punjab region (Sapta Sindhu), but I do not honestly see any importance of the Ganges area. The word Ganga itself only appears maybe once or twice and its in the context of a Goddess or woman.
    I don't think the Rig veda is centered on the Ganges. But Mandala 10 of the Rig Veda clearly names the rivers in the exact order they appear east to west. So by the late Rig Veda, these people had spread to that area from NW South Asia.

    And yes, consensus is that the early RIg Veda was composed somewhere around NW S. Asia. The earliest part is centered on the river Saraswati (mythical?) whose location is still unknown. Its course has been plotted anywhere between present day Afghanistan and the Ghagra-Hakra river.

    No one has yet claimed it to be in Central Asia or near the BMAC though. If you know of any published studies based on archaeology (not speculation), it would be interesting.
    Last edited by soulblighter; 12-02-2017 at 05:59 PM.
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  13. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulblighter View Post
    I don't think the Rig veda is centered on the Ganges. But Mandala 10 of the Rig Veda clearly names the rivers in the exact order they appear east to west. So by the late Rig Veda, these people had spread to that area from NW South Asia.

    And yes, consensus is that the early RIg Veda was composed somewhere around NW S. Asia. The earliest part is centered on the river Saraswati (mythical?) whose location is still unknown. Its course has been plotted anywhere between present day Afghanistan and the Ghagra-Hakra river.

    No one has yet claimed it to be in Central Asia or near the BMAC though. If you know of any published studies based on archaeology (not speculation), it would be interesting.
    Also mentioned the same form Gangaya (on the Ganga). https://books.google.com/books?id=1Hp1MX8d8osC&pg=PA287
    31 Brbu hath set himself above the Paṇis, o’er their highest head,
    Like the wide bush on Gan!gā's bank.
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv06045.htm
    Talageri's order for the earliest seven Mandalas is as follows: 6, 3, 7, 4, 2, 5 and 8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ri...rical_Analysis

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  15. #1049
    There's nothing showing they were significantly darker than modern day Greeks, select Spaniards, or South Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poldo View Post
    There's nothing showing they were significantly darker than modern day Greeks, select Spaniards, or South Italians.
    What do you mean "significant"? Can you post some SNPs?

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