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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #1071
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    Here are the predictions. I did find another pigment 15 SNPs but have not perfected the 36 SNP calculator yet. So there is potentially a little wiggle room, but so far based on the above graph or my additional SNPs it looks like Yamnaya and Srubnaya not any different in pigmentation than Caucasians and Ukrainians.

    If someone finds a paper that shows Yamnaya darker please post it so that we can see what SNPs they based the prediction on.

    SRUBNA I0232

    [IMG][/IMG]



    EHG I0061


    [IMG][/IMG]



    YAMNA I0231

    [IMG][/IMG]

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  3. #1072
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    With regards to Yamnaya shared drift, I have posted some of my analysis graphs based on the sequences I diploid genotyped at http://www.eurasiandna.com/2017/10/0...e-ancient-dna/

    Unfortunately, I did not have Lezgins or some of their neighbors in the IBS and haplotype sharing analysis, however, from the pops I had included, Yamna I0231 diploid shares the most drift with Ukrainians and SC Asians such as Pashtuns and Tajiks.

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  5. #1073
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    By contrast to the steppe samples, Iran N WC1 has the ancestral allele for rs1426654. He is AG at that position. His skin color prediction is for brownish skin. I'll try to do Loschbour and Stuttgart tomorrow

    Here is what I have

    SNPs Iran N-WC1
    rs10777129 GG
    rs13289 NN
    rs1408799 TT
    rs1426654 AG
    rs1448484 NN
    rs16891982 NN
    rs2402130 AA
    rs3829241 GG
    rs6058017 NN
    rs6119471 NN


    And his prediction:



    [IMG][/IMG]


    EDIT: By brownish skin I mean darker than the vast majority of modern Kurds and Iranians, which some are pretty dark. So about the complexion of C Indians , darker Punjabis
    Last edited by Kurd; 12-03-2017 at 02:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Just because you claim that, it does not become true. Actually the exact opposite is true. aDNA has shown, that many Indians carry a y-dna marker found in Neolithic/Mesolithic Ukraine and Russia with zero south asian admixture. Just get, that there is no R1a in South Asia today, which is not R1a-M417 like Sredny Stog. Actually almost all South Asians belong to Z93, which is even much younger than M417.
    What exactly is a South Asian admixture ? Do you have aDNA from South Asia based on which you're making this argument ? The people from Northern portion of South Asia are majority ANI. Do you think ANI has come into South Asia during the Bronze Age ?

    If your argument is that ASI should have already been present in North India / Pakistan from the Mesolithic/Neolithic if not earlier, you clearly have not read the Moorjani et al paper carefully -

    We estimated admixture dates for all the groups on the Indian cline with more than five samples (a minimum sample size is important for measuring LD with precision). We observe a decay of LD with genetic distance for all groups (Figures 2 and S3). By fitting an exponential function using least-squares (via rolloff), our point estimates for the dates range from 64 to 144 generations ago, or 1,856 to 4,176 years assuming 29 years per generation
    We highlight two implications of these dates. First, nearly all groups experienced major mixture in the last few thousand years, including tribal groups like the Bhil, Chamar, and Kallar that might be expected to be more isolated. Second, the date estimates are typically more recent in Indo-Europeans (average of 72 generations) compared to Dravidians (108 generations). A jackknife estimate of the difference is highly significant at 35 +- 8 generations (Z = 4.5 standard errors from zero) (Table 1). A possible explanation is a secondary wave of mixture in the history of many Indo-European groups, which would decrease the estimated admixture date.
    Our analysis documents major mixture between populations in India that occurred 1,9004,200 years BP, well after the establishment of agriculture in the subcontinent. We have further shown that groups with unmixed ANI and ASI ancestry were plausibly living in India until this time......Our estimated dates of mixture correlate to geography and language, with northern groups that speak Indo- European languages having significantly younger admixture dates than southern groups that speak Dravidian languages. This shows that at least some of the history of population mixture in India is related to the spread of languages in the subcontinent. One possible explanation for the generally younger dates in northern Indians is that after an original mixture event of ANI and ASI that contributed to all present-day Indians, some northern groups received additional gene flow from groups with high proportions of West Eurasian ancestry, bringing down their average mixture date.....It is also important to emphasize what our study has not shown. Although we have documented evidence for mixture in India between about 1,900 and 4,200 years BP, this does not imply migration from West Eurasia into India during this time. On the contrary, a recent study that searched for West Eurasian groups most closely related to the ANI ancestors of Indians failed to find any evidence for shared ancestry between the ANI and groups in West Eurasia within the past 12,500 years....An alternative possibility that is also consistent with our data is that the ANI and ASI were both living in or near South Asia for a substantial period prior to their mixture.
    The above clearly supports an argument that before 4000 YBP, it is plausible that the people of the Northerns regions of Indian subcontinent may not have had ASI admixture and were conceivably only ANI. Can you deny then that such an ANI only population could not have impacted the likes of Yamnaya when it received the southern Iran-Chl like admixture ?

    ---------------------------

    Regarding R1a in South Asia, read this recent article by Chaubey & Thangaraj

    http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-e...le19265947.ece

    We agree that the major Indian R1a1 branch, i.e. L657, is not more than 5,000 years old. However, the phylogenetic structure of this branch cannot be considered as a derivative of either Europeans or Central Asians. The split with the European is around 6,000 years and thereafter the Asian branch (Z93) gave rise to the South Asian L657, which is a brother branch of lineages present in West Asia, Europe and Central Asia. Such kind of expansion, universally associated with most of the Y chromosome lineages of the world, as shown in 2015 by Monika Karmin et al., was most likely due to dramatic decline in genetic diversity in male lineages four to eight thousand years ago (Genome Research, 2015; 4:459-66). Moreover, there is evidence which is consistent with the early presence of several R1a branches in India (our unpublished data).
    So hold your horses before aDNA comes out from South Asia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    What is your point ? Genetics have actually shown that. Sintashta and Andronovo carry Z2124 exact like modern day Pashtuns, Tajiks and Tatars/Turks(descendants of Scythians/Sarmatians).
    Not only that, the R1b subclade found in Yamnaya is also found among the Central Asians and Pashtuns. However, why could this not be because of ancestors of these Pashtuns and Central Asians migrating to the steppe ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Yeah Indo-Aryan L657 was not found among Sintashta and Andronovo yet, but we just got ancient dna from northeastern Andronovo and nothing from Abashevo or southern Andronovo, where L657 will probably found sooner or later, if more remains get tested.
    Yet we have significant aDNA from the steppe. Contrast this with ZERO aDNA from Central & South Asia. We simply do not know how these ancient South & Central Asians were like. Before aDNA, would you have said that there were 3 different types of Neolithic groups in the fertile crescent at the start of Neolithic ? So why are ready to come to conclusion before aDNA from SC Asia comes out ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    It is absolutely irrelevant, if modern South Asians carry much or no EEF . Modern day South Asians are a very mixed population and maybe have very low direct steppe ancestry. We don't have ancient dna from South Asia yet, so we can not exclude , that they carry much Indo-Aryan y-dna but low steppe autosomal dna.
    If South Asians had very low direct steppe ancestry, why did Lazaridis et al 2016 model all South Asians as having very high level of Yamnaya like ancestry ? Clearly, the situation is complex. The genetic affinites of South Asian populations is not just because of Bronze Age migrations but even earlier migrations dating to as early as the Palaeolithic. There is high ANE affinity in South Asians and this simply cannot be explained as a byproduct of some recent bronzge age migration from the steppe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    It is possible that early EEF-rich Indo-Iranians mixed much with Yamnaya/Poltavka so that their autosomal dna became very yamnaya-like before they arrived in South Asia, that would explain why South Asians seem to be closer to Yamnaya than to Sintashta or Andronovo.
    This is just speculative stuff. Show me a steppe population from the 2nd millenium BC, which shows no EEF. We can then talk.

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    The claim that the Rig Vedic seers resided in central asia is ridiculous. The only reason for suspecting that they were familliar with territories beyond the eastern Hindu Kush - are the names the sarswati and the sarayu which names seem to have been borne by the arghandab and herat rivers respectively. However the identification of these rivers with those of the same name in the Rig Veda seem doubtful. The Puru-Bharatas resided in the Eastern Panjab with their territories extending upto the yamuna. The Ganga was known atleast by later Rig Vedic times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Immchr View Post
    Unfortunately modern South Asians do not have any EEF ancestry and are more similar to the Yamnaya, who according to Linguistic/archaeological model were the PIE, then to the later steppe cultures. This should tell you how hopeless the steppe model is.
    No offense but familiarise yourself with the forums and admixture results posted - EEF exists at low levels as does European/Steppe EHG in most South Asian results on this forum, as far south as Kerala

    Also Andronovo ancestry exists in South Asians at significant levels, particularly the Brahmins- including as far south as Tamil Nadu

    EDIT:"If South Asians had very low direct steppe ancestry, why did Lazaridis et al 2016 model all South Asians as having very high level of Yamnaya like ancestry ? Clearly, the situation is complex. The genetic affinites of South Asian populations is not just because of Bronze Age migrations but even earlier migrations dating to as early as the Palaeolithic. There is high ANE affinity in South Asians and this simply cannot be explained as a byproduct of some recent bronzge age migration from the steppe."

    Agree with the above - ANE exists at high levels with populations with no IE ancestry
    Last edited by bmoney; 12-03-2017 at 01:58 PM.

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  13. #1077
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishvamitra View Post
    The claim that the Rig Vedic seers resided in central asia is ridiculous. The only reason for suspecting that they were familliar with territories beyond the eastern Hindu Kush - are the names the sarswati and the sarayu which names seem to have been borne by the arghandab and herat rivers respectively. However the identification of these rivers with those of the same name in the Rig Veda seem doubtful. The Puru-Bharatas resided in the Eastern Panjab with their territories extending upto the yamuna. The Ganga was known atleast by later Rig Vedic times.
    They did not reside in Central Asia because of the Para Munda or Dravidian stratum in Vedic Sanskrit , they move into the Swat and upper Dir valleys and largely develop their culture in that region and Northern Punjab regions and eventually extend to other regions within Punjab. Vedic Aryans are very much a Bronze age NW South Asian culture.
    The region of the Ganges in Uttar Pradesh , is not a feature in the Rig Vedic world though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    By contrast to the steppe samples, Iran N WC1 has the ancestral allele for rs1426654. He is AG at that position. His skin color prediction is for brownish skin. I'll try to do Loschbour and Stuttgart tomorrow
    Makes sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    They did not reside in Central Asia because of the Para Munda or Dravidian stratum in Vedic Sanskrit , they move into the Swat and upper Dir valleys and largely develop their culture in that region and Northern Punjab regions and eventually extend to other regions within Punjab. Vedic Aryans are very much a Bronze age NW South Asian culture.
    The region of the Ganges in Uttar Pradesh , is not a feature in the Rig Vedic world though.
    It is a small feature but I think you mean not prominent and I agree with you

  16. #1080
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    No offense but familiarise yourself with the forums and admixture results posted - EEF exists at low levels as does European/Steppe EHG in most South Asian results on this forum, as far south as Kerala

    Also Andronovo ancestry exists in South Asians at significant levels, particularly the Brahmins- including as far south as Tamil Nadu

    EDIT:"If South Asians had very low direct steppe ancestry, why did Lazaridis et al 2016 model all South Asians as having very high level of Yamnaya like ancestry ? Clearly, the situation is complex. The genetic affinites of South Asian populations is not just because of Bronze Age migrations but even earlier migrations dating to as early as the Palaeolithic. There is high ANE affinity in South Asians and this simply cannot be explained as a byproduct of some recent bronzge age migration from the steppe."

    Agree with the above - ANE exists at high levels with populations with no IE ancestry
    Actually cannot use MLBA or Srubna/Androvno/Sintashta, the best South Asian model u can get it is with Kalash and they only take in Yamnaya. Technically and logically it should be MLBA but they simple do not work AT ALL. Though I noticed some Kho and Brahmin samples score SW Euro admixture , which infers EEF but that could represent later flows but over all, Steppe in South Asians will be of the Yamnaya kind. My friend thinks there is something Pre Steppe in SC/C Asia causing this as well but yeah these Steppe groups definitely stream through. Only samples will resolve this strange paradox.
    distance%=0.53 / distance=0.0053 Kalash
    Iran_N 40.0
    Yamnaya_Samara 37.3
    Paniya 22.2
    One thing which is intersting is that Indo Iranians were Yamnaya type not Sintashta/Androvno types because those Nuristani samples which Khana has are exactly like Kalash not like Kho or Pashtuns, so they will model like above. Nuristanis are unique because they are neither Iranic nor Indo Aryan
    Last edited by pegasus; 12-03-2017 at 03:00 PM.

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