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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #1441
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Some communites like NW SAs and Bengali Brahmins have both - the older Yamna-like pop and newer Srubna via Scythians

    Yamna is a better fit overall but if you choose Nepali Brahmins for example - lets see how that plays out
    There is nothing to play out, Scythians are derived from Androvono/Sintashta population + Local Central Asian ancestry. Whatever bonafide Scythian mixture it exists , it would be limited to some NW South Asian groups, which logically makes sense they live literally just next door East Iranic groups. One group which sticks out are Ormuris, who are a lot like Pamiri Tajiks but live literally at the door step of densely populated areas of the Punjab plains. So these are your Saka like groups. So the vector for whatever low levels of whatever Saka ancestry exist is mixing with groups like these. Androvono/Sintashta/Srubna are all Iranic groups , and none of these people directly entered the region. Another thing low levels of EEF can also be facilitated by a Iran_Chl pulse. In the case of Bengali and Nepali Brahmins they clearly look EBA Steppe derived in their Steppe but with noticeable admixture from Tibeto Burman or Austro Asiatic groups, not the sort of Altai like stuff you see with Saka.

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  3. #1442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    It's impossible, but it's sometimes discussed in papers as a potential problem. Anyway, dating admixture events like that using modern-day DNA is now outdated, because ancient DNA is a more reliable way of pinpointing admixture and migration dates.
    When aDNA is present, obviously, things become much more deterministic(within its own assumptions/limitations), but -- given the absense of aDNA at this time -- is it still "outdated"?

    Edit - the paper was published in 2013, so not really ancient history to be outdated by default.
    Last edited by poi; 01-14-2018 at 01:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Thats pretty much all of modern Indo-Aryan India - There is literally no other population that can proxy for the Indo-Scythians in the record

    I'll do some digging as to the age estimates of R1a in south Asia
    Nah - R1a definitely came with Moorjani's earliest estimate of 4.2ka, which also line up with South Indian Brahmin admixture signatures

    The case is definitely as Davidski said - minor admixture muddling the signatures for North Indians. It was probably the Scythians who provided that admixture signal bringing later clades of R1a

    So multiple waves of Central Asians with R1a - 3 or more waves. Makes sense, the earlier wave of R1a went as far as the south, the later waves stayed north.

    2017 paper

    https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.co...862-017-0936-9

    The South Asian R1a-L657, dated to ~4.2 ka [3.3;5.1] (Yfull tree v4.10 [54]]), is the largest (in the 1KG dataset) of several closely related subclades within R1a-Z94 of very similar time depth. Moreover, not only has R1a been found in all Sintashta and Sintashta-derived Andronovo and Srubnaya remains analysed to date at the genome-wide level (nine in total) [76, 77], and been previously identified in a majority of Andronovo (2/3) and post-Andronovo Iron Age (Tagar and Tachtyk: 6/6) male samples from southern central Siberia tested using microsatellite analysis [101], it has also been identified in other remains across Europe and Central Asia ranging from the Mesolithic up until the Iron Age

    aDNA will also be needed to test the hypothesis that there were several streams of Indo-Aryan immigration (each with a different pantheon), for example with the earliest arriving ~3.4 ka and those following the Rigveda several centuries later [12]. Although they are closely related, suggesting they likely spread from a single Central Asian source pool, there do seem to be at least three and probably more R1a founder clades within the Subcontinent [58], consistent with multiple waves of arrival.
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-14-2018 at 02:01 AM.

  5. #1444
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    There is nothing to play out, Scythians are derived from Androvono/Sintashta population + Local Central Asian ancestry. Whatever bonafide Scythian mixture it exists , it would be limited to some NW South Asian groups, which logically makes sense they live literally just next door East Iranic groups. One group which sticks out are Ormuris, who are a lot like Pamiri Tajiks but live literally at the door step of densely populated areas of the Punjab plains. So these are your Saka like groups. So the vector for whatever low levels of whatever Saka ancestry exist is mixing with groups like these. Androvono/Sintashta/Srubna are all Iranic groups , and none of these people directly entered the region. Another thing low levels of EEF can also be facilitated by a Iran_Chl pulse. In the case of Bengali and Nepali Brahmins they clearly look EBA Steppe derived in their Steppe but with noticeable admixture from Tibeto Burman or Austro Asiatic groups, not the sort of Altai like stuff you see with Saka.
    I don’t think we have any recent admixture from Austroasiatic people because no Austroasiatic tribes live in the Himalayas of Nepal. The mongoloid admixture in us comes from Tibetan type people, but it’s less than 5%. We also tend to score Altai type admixture (Siberian, Amerindian, Beringian,etc) and they’re usually 1-3% combined (Based on HarappaWorld calculator).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeathStranding View Post
    Yamnaya is also very distant from eastern europeans genetically.
    Very funny. Now lets look at the reality shall we...

    Genetic maps featuring 67 ancient genomes and more than 3,000 present-day individuals



    Also he is wrong when he tries to claim its settled that R1a came from that region, from all we know, R1a could have existed in the Indus valley and migrated west with the CHG/neolithic iranian/gedrosian component or something similar. Yamnaya has almost half its ancestry from something CHG like or "southern" and since most if not all the Yamnaya samples lacked R1a, yet that is the only steppe component that peaks in South asia. it opens the possibility that some other component other than the european part of yamnaya originally carried R1a.
    Eastern European Mesolithic foragers with no Caucasian, let alone South Asian, ancestry belonged to R1a. It is not a CHG marker. J is a CHG marker. Why so hopelessly delusional? You don't want to know what really happened or what?


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  9. #1446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Very funny. Now lets look at the reality shall we...

    Genetic maps featuring 67 ancient genomes and more than 3,000 present-day individuals





    Eastern European Mesolithic foragers with no Caucasian, let alone South Asian, ancestry belonged to R1a. It is not a CHG marker. J is a CHG marker. Why so hopelessly delusional? You don't want to know what really happened or what?

    Actually your PCA plot seems out of reality. NO modern population would cluster so close with Yamnaya, unless ofcourse its taking WHG to be ANE, but even then there is no European population which is so ANE rich, or teal rich as the Yamnaya are. IF you do find a modern population like that it would be interesting but clearly there is not. Actual Yamnaya ancestry in Uralic peoples like Sami and Mordovians is conflated by the fact they have prior EHG ancestry unrelated to Yamnaya, I believe Kristina mentioned this, but then you also have to account the rich Teal /CHG ancestry. Also I don't really consider Uralic groups like Tatars,Udmurts, Mordovians or even Sami as classical Europeans, by this line of logic , Levantines , Anatolian Turks are more European. You seem to have this issue of projecting modern day geopolitical constructs on archaic populations, it would be more beneficial to focus on the genetics of it rather than obsessing how "East European" they are, its rather quite sad and petty.
    Last edited by pegasus; 01-14-2018 at 06:27 AM.

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  11. #1447
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Actually your PCA plot seems out of reality. NO modern population would cluster so close with Yamnaya, unless ofcourse its taking WHG to be ANE, but even then there is no European population which is so ANE rich, or teal rich as the Yamnaya are. IF you do find a modern population like that it would be interesting but clearly there is not. Actual Yamnaya ancestry in Uralic peoples like Sami and Mordovians is conflated by the fact they have prior EHG ancestry unrelated to Yamnaya, I believe Kristina mentioned this, but then you also have to account the rich Teal /CHG ancestry. Also I don't really consider Uralic groups like Tatars,Udmurts, Mordovians or even Sami as classical Europeans, by this line of logic , Levantines , Anatolian Turks are more European.
    There's nothing wrong with the PCA, you just don't know how to interpret the results.

    Learn to interpret the PCA, then we'll talk.

  12. #1448
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Also I don't really consider Uralic groups like Tatars, Udmurts, Mordovians or even Sami as classical Europeans, by this line of logic, Levantines , Anatolian Turks are more European.
    By the way, are you also a frustrated comedian? Levantines more European than Mordovians???


  13. #1449
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    Making lame ad hominem attacks, it speaks volumes of the fact you could not answer a simple question, find a "European" group which is ANE rich and teal/CHG rich. You seem triggered in any case you proved my point and it brings to mind Socrate's famous quote (an actual European)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post

    Eastern European Mesolithic foragers with no Caucasian, let alone South Asian, ancestry belonged to R1a. It is not a CHG marker. J is a CHG marker. Why so hopelessly delusional? You don't want to know what really happened or what?

    Is there a reason your maps omit the R1a1 -M17 in Neolithic Siberia (c. 5500BC; 7500 yBP)?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 01-14-2018 at 07:19 AM.

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