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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    This reminds me that Uttaranchal/Uttarakhand & Himachali populations are woefully under-sampled. I figure that Brahmins and Rajputs from both Himalayan states will score varying amounts of NE Asian/Siberian like admixture but I'm curious if any of the populations have any similarity to Nepali Brahmins or even Kashmiri Pandits/Muslim for some of those in Himachal Pradesh. I'd love to see Malana autosomal samples in particular.

    If I ever had the time and money, I'd love to travel to some remote villages in both states with some 23andMe/FTDNA kits and a translator. I'd try to get some kits to the Kashmir Valley districts as well.
    There is no way Himachal Rajputs like MS Dhoni and Preity Zinta would score anything more than negligible E Asian

    That Uttaranchal sample is Tibetid admixed. Theres a fair bit of admixture with E Asian/Tibetan in parts of those states but it would not be in every community

    I agree all the Himalayan states will have similarities in admixture particularly the Indo-Aryan signal
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-21-2018 at 11:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jortita View Post
    I am personally coming around to the view that until they analyse Ancient DNA from Assam and NE India, there is likely to be generalisation of some of my DNA as being South Indian. The difference I have seen between my South Indian scores and Bangladeshi friends on calculators is they do not score as high Oceanian as I do, and I have a hunch that the oceanian coupled with SE Asian which is generalised as South Asian is possibly from a NE Indian ancestry community which is still to be understood. I am also happy to be proven wrong
    Key is splitting out the SE Asians from the paleolithic ghost ASI

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Nepali with bhramin lastname"dahal",
    These guys are E Asian with a smattering of SA

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    A krygyz person scoring much SEA as well
    That settles it, maybe SE Asian represents a Han Chinese-like component

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesus View Post
    Some Nepali Brahmin results. IMO Nepali Brahmins are extremely interesting because they largely avoided extra steppe input carried by groups such as Sakas and Kushans. Most of their steppe ancestry is probably from the initial Indo Aryan wave. In MDLP K16 those individuals get interesting results.

    IMO it's pretty safe to say that the initial Indo Aryans in south Asia(Post BMAC admixture, obviously) were Yaghnobi/Pamiri/Afg-Pashtun like with a touch of Avar/Lezgin like admix.


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Indian 50.33
    2 Caucasian 17.33
    3 SouthEastAsian 10.38
    4 Steppe 7.51
    5 NorthEastEuropean 5.29
    6 Siberian 3.64
    7 Australian 2.31
    8 Oceanic 1.55
    9 Neolithic 1.3
    10 Amerindian 0.37

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Brahmin (India) 5.48
    2 Vaish (Odisha) 5.79
    3 Kshatriya (India) 5.8
    4 Burusho (Pakistan) 6.39
    5 Brahmin (Uttar_Pradesh) 6.83
    6 Jatt (Muslim) 6.88
    7 Kashmiri_Pandit (Kashmir) 8.42
    8 Meena (Rajasthan) 8.9
    9 Meghawal (Gujarat) 9.26
    10 Jatt (Pahari) 9.5
    11 Brahmin (Tamil_Nadu) 10.61
    12 Gujjar (Punjab) 10.69
    13 Srivastava (India) 10.82
    14 Sindhi (Sindh) 11.35
    15 Pathan (Punjab) 11.65
    16 Jatt (Haryana) 11.66
    17 GujaratiA (Gujarat) 11.74
    18 Lambadi (Karnataka) 11.91
    19 Jew (Cochin) 12.28
    20 Muslim (India) 12.6

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 66.2% Lambadi (Karnataka) + 33.8% Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) @ 2.28
    2 68.4% Lambadi (Karnataka) + 31.6% Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) @ 2.54
    3 69% Lambadi (Karnataka) + 31% Shugnan (Badachshan) @ 2.62
    4 80.9% Srivastava (India) + 19.1% Nogai (Dagestan) @ 2.63
    5 69.8% Lambadi (Karnataka) + 30.2% Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) @ 2.72
    6 56% Dusadh (Uttar_Pradesh) + 44% Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) @ 2.8
    7 76.8% Dharkar (Uttar_Pradesh) + 23.2% Nogai (Dagestan) @ 2.81
    8 55.6% Jatt (Haryana) + 44.4% Dhaka (Malay_Archipelago) @ 2.83
    9 71.8% Srivastava (India) + 28.2% Tajik (Tajikistan) @ 2.9
    10 68.4% Muslim (India) + 31.6% Tajik (Tajikistan) @ 2.9
    11 78.4% Muslim (India) + 21.6% Nogai (Dagestan) @ 2.98
    12 56.7% Kamsali (Andra_Pradesh) + 43.3% Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) @ 3
    13 70.6% Kol (Uttar_Pradesh) + 29.4% Avar (Dagestan_Shangoda) @ 3.01
    14 70% Kol (Uttar_Pradesh) + 30% Ava (Dagestan_Khunzakh) @ 3.03
    15 59.7% Dusadh (Uttar_Pradesh) + 40.3% Tajik (Tajikistan) @ 3.03
    16 88.6% Kshatriya (India) + 11.4% Uygur (Xinjiang) @ 3.05
    17 69.4% Kol (Uttar_Pradesh) + 30.6% Avar (Dagestan) @ 3.06
    18 69.8% Srivastava (India) + 30.2% Tajiks (Afghanistan) @ 3.07
    19 70.4% Kol (Uttar_Pradesh) + 29.6% Tabasaran (Dagestan) @ 3.07
    20 60.7% Orissa (India) + 39.3% Pashtun (Afghanistan) @ 3.07



    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Indian 49.47
    2 Caucasian 19.6
    3 SouthEastAsian 8.69
    4 Steppe 6.35
    5 NorthEastEuropean 6.15
    6 Amerindian 2.62
    7 Australian 1.98
    8 Arctic 1.96
    9 Siberian 1.37
    10 Oceanic 1.3
    11 Ancestor 0.42
    12 Neolithic 0.09

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Brahmin (India) 5.05
    2 Jatt (Muslim) 6.37
    3 Kashmiri_Pandit (Kashmir) 7.11
    4 Jatt (Pahari) 7.3
    5 Kshatriya (India) 7.4
    6 Burusho (Pakistan) 7.67
    7 Vaish (Odisha) 7.7
    8 Meena (Rajasthan) 8.05
    9 Brahmin (Uttar_Pradesh) 8.06
    10 Gujjar (Punjab) 8.94
    11 Pathan (Punjab) 9.76
    12 Jatt (Haryana) 10.5
    13 Meghawal (Gujarat) 10.63
    14 Sindhi (Sindh) 10.85
    15 Brahmin (Tamil_Nadu) 10.87
    16 GujaratiA (Gujarat) 11.72
    17 Jew (Cochin) 12.02
    18 Jew (Mumbai) 12.17
    19 Srivastava (India) 12.25
    20 Pashtun (Pakistan) 12.98

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 71.6% Srivastava (India) + 28.4% Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) @ 3.34
    2 76.9% Srivastava (India) + 23.1% Dargin (Urkarah) @ 3.57
    3 77% Srivastava (India) + 23% Avar (Dagestan) @ 3.65
    4 77.9% Srivastava (India) + 22.1% Tabasaran (Dagestan) @ 3.69
    5 60.2% Dusadh (Uttar_Pradesh) + 39.8% Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) @ 3.77
    6 77.6% Srivastava (India) + 22.4% Ava (Dagestan_Khunzakh) @ 3.8
    7 77.9% Srivastava (India) + 22.1% Lak (Dagestan) @ 3.81
    8 67.5% Srivastava (India) + 32.5% Shugnan (Badachshan) @ 3.83
    9 65.9% Kurmi (Nepal) + 34.1% Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) @ 3.86
    10 77.8% Srivastava (India) + 22.2% Lezgin (Dagestan) @ 3.9
    11 64.3% Lambadi (Karnataka) + 35.7% Shugnan (Badachshan) @ 3.91
    12 68.5% Srivastava (India) + 31.5% Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) @ 3.94
    13 65% Srivastava (India) + 35% Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) @ 3.96
    14 67.1% Srivastava (India) + 32.9% Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) @ 3.97
    15 80.4% Srivastava (India) + 19.6% Kumyk (Dagestan) @ 3.99
    16 58% Scheduled_Caste (Tamil_Nadu) + 42% Shugnan (Badachshan) @ 4.02
    17 77.5% Srivastava (India) + 22.5% Kumyk (Stalskoe) @ 4.02
    18 63% Srivastava (India) + 37% Pashtun (Afghanistan) @ 4.02
    19 69% Lambadi (Karnataka) + 31% Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) @ 4.03
    20 81.2% Srivastava (India) + 18.8% Chechen (Chechnya) @ 4.09
    There is no doubt that initial Indo Aryans will be similar to SC Asians, though in the IA case the Steppe will be Yamna, I made a similar inference with Plateau Iranians earlier that Iran_N went up (contrary to thinking and even what I thought initially) , so this composite population dumped extra Iran_N and a good amount of Steppe. Interestingly in modelling, you still get pretty good fits with Tajiks even when you use Yamna, better with Srubna but its not a dramatic shift, which points to layered ancestries. My inkling tells me Steppe shifted versions of Kalash are the perfect candidate. Kalash show something very Lezgin like , though I don't know if it could just be related Yamna or something which existed in SC Asia prior to actual IIr people streaming through.

    I think Nepali Brahmins model well with Pamiris Tajiks as well because they do have that sort of shared NE Asian ancestry via mixing with Tibetan like peoples, where as with Tajik it came via Altaic related peoples. In the case of Afghan Pashtuns, the more "Southern" (Kandahar/Oruzgan/Logar) groups are surprisingly quite similar to Ishakshim Pamiri Tajiks than to Pashtuns living in regions along the Kabul river which skew more with neighbouring Indo Aryan/Dardic populations.
    Looked another way those Southern Pashtuns look a lot like Southern Iranian/SW Pakistani populations but with a lot of Srubna/Sintashta related ancestry (35-40%).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    There is no doubt that initial Indo Aryans will be similar to SC Asians, though in the IA case the Steppe will be Yamna, I made a similar inference with Plateau Iranians earlier that Iran_N went up (contrary to thinking and even what I thought initially) , so this composite population dumped extra Iran_N and a good amount of Steppe. Interestingly in modelling, you still get pretty good fits with Tajiks even when you use Yamna, better with Srubna but its not a dramatic shift, which points to layered ancestries. My inkling tells me Steppe shifted versions of Kalash are the perfect candidate. Kalash show something very Lezgin like , though I don't know if it could just be related Yamna or something which existed in SC Asia prior to actual IIr people streaming through.

    I think Nepali Brahmins model well with Pamiris Tajiks as well because they do have that sort of shared NE Asian ancestry via mixing with Tibetan like peoples, where as with Tajik it came via Altaic related peoples. In the case of Afghan Pashtuns, the more "Southern" (Kandahar/Oruzgan/Logar) groups are surprisingly quite similar to Ishakshim Pamiri Tajiks than to Pashtuns living in regions along the Kabul river which skew more with neighbouring Indo Aryan/Dardic populations.
    Looked another way those Southern Pashtuns look a lot like Southern Iranian/SW Pakistani populations but with a lot of Srubna/Sintashta related ancestry (35-40%).
    Could be old, due to the pervasiveness of steppe_EMBA all over SA

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Looked another way those Southern Pashtuns look a lot like Southern Iranian/SW Pakistani populations but with a lot of Srubna/Sintashta related ancestry (35-40%).
    Which SA pops outside Southern Pashtuns have the highest level of Srubna-like ancestry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pnb123 View Post
    I haven't met any Garhwali or Kumaoni Brahmin from Uttarakhand irl, so I can't really comment on their phenotype. Although Kumaoni brahmins do exist in Nepal, they're called Kumai (Poi and Gyanwali are both Kumai brahmin, I and Everest are Purvey Brahmin), but our admixtures aren't really that different from each other & phenotypically too there isn't any difference at all. Just going by the admixture results of Brahmin Uttaranchal on Gedmatch, I think they'll be even more East Asian shifted than Chhetris.
    I have only seen 1 Garhwali brahmin results and as i mentioned before in other thread, the North East Asian was actually almost 25-30%. My hometown is full of Uttrakhand Brahmins. Garhwali brahmins are more east asian looking just like Garhwali Rajputs in phenotype hence usually are mistaken for nepalis. While Kumaonis from what I have seen are more Darker and Central Indian kind of looking. It's easy for a person like me who grew up with them to tell who is Kumaoni and who is Garhwali. Even Garhwal divides in two parts, Tihri and Pauri. Pauri garhwalis are more east asian looking out of two since it is further in the mountains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    There is no way Himachal Rajputs like MS Dhoni and Preity Zinta would score anything more than negligible E Asian

    That Uttaranchal sample is Tibetid admixed. Theres a fair bit of admixture with E Asian/Tibetan in parts of those states but it would not be in every community

    I agree all the Himalayan states will have similarities in admixture particularly the Indo-Aryan signal
    Dhoni is Kumaoni Rajput, from uttrakhand, and as I stated in earlier post, he fits in Kumaoni spectrum. More Central/UP Indian kind of looking. The Rajputs and Brahmins of West Himachal touching Punjab e.g. Una are very punjabi looking. So I highly doubt the Rajputs of Shimla and further east regions would score same as Rajputs/Brahmins of West Himachal like Hamirpur, Una region. I'd expect Rajputs from Shimla or east scoring higher East asian since they are more closer to Uttrakhand.

    Kenji is a Brahmin from Dharamshala, which is very close to Punjab and Jammu, hence his and his parents results were similar to Jammuites.

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  16. #1570
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Which SA pops outside Southern Pashtuns have the highest level of Srubna-like ancestry?
    Tajiks by far, but I suspect there is a layered ancestry , after the initial Indo Aryan and Katavari/ proto Nuristani groups, East Iranics came through in, but in different waves, the ones which formed the Yaz with locals and the second were East Iranic tribes like Saka, etc come through. Though they are other Tocharian related groups like Yueh chi and Kushans which come on the scene. I suspect Central Asia was awash Pamiri Tajik and those Southern Afghan Pashtun types at a point and were largely wiped or absorbed with the demise of the Kwarzemshah by Mongol Hordes.

    http://oxere.com/mongol_invasion30804.htm

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