Waves of migration into South Asia

[Awale]

And Dienekes was still claiming not long ago that R1a was native to South Asia. So he's not exactly a bright spark.

The man was recently trying to argue that Eurasians' genetic diversity isn't a subset of African genetic diversity because the former have a tiny bit of Denisovan admixture as though it's lost on him that Denisovans and Neanderthals' ancestors originally migrated from Africa in the first place. I guess this is his weird new crusade after the Anatolian Hypothesis was annihilated... He honestly lost all credibility a long time ago.

[parasar]

Where is z93 referred to in the paper?

In the comments archive.
After being hounded by Clyde Winters (who mostly writes nonsense), Hui Zhou, the corresponding author and research principal, disclosed that.
https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/ar...-8-15/comments

[bmoney]

In the comments archive.
After being hounded by Clyde Winters (who mostly writes nonsense), Hui Zhou, the corresponding author and research principal, disclosed that.
https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/ar...-8-15/comments

LOL @ Clyde Winters thats hilarious!

Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried HgR1a1in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M*in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belong to R1a1a-Z93 branch(our recently unpublished data) which mainly found in Asians. mtDNA Hgs H, K, C4 primarily distributed in northern Eurasians. Though H, K, C4 also presence in modern south Asian, they immigrated into South Asian recently from nearby populations, such as Near East , East Asia and Central Asia, and the frequency is obviously lower than that of northern Eurasian.

Moreover, the culture of Xiaohe is similar with the Afanasievo culture. Afanasievo culture was mainly distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions, and didn’t spread into India. This further maintains the “steppe hypothesis”.

Altai was partially z93 but based on phenotype and mtdna (and C y-dna) it looks Euro steppe and E Asian mixed

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25016250

[Vaishvamitra]

Yes that could work, that was probably the direction of migration but the groups dont seem to be small. Im not sure if Maharashtran IAs were used in Moorjanis sample of Indo-Aryans.

For your second question im not sure how the rolloff method which was used by Dienekes and Moorjani works but yes the 4.1kya could either be Brahmins mixing with South Indians or R1a mixing with Brahmin precursors in the north. If the former, then the R1a entry age into SA is even earlier

Based on history, the southern Brahmins seem to be a case of a northern caste moving south and not an R1a male founder moving south and mixing, which means their admix dates are probably the newest in south India.
Were probably looking at something even earlier for southern tribal R1a unless Brahmins somehow admixed with tribals which seem unlikely. The R1a in Vellalars Reddys etc and other Dravidian middle-castes and low castes are highly unlikely to be all Brahmin mediated - the magnitude is just too large and none of these communities have the written and oral Aryan history the Brahmins have

The beginings of urbanism in the south in the second half of the first millenium BCE owe something to the similar developments further north. There were probably not just migrations of brahmins and buddhist/jain monks to the south but movements of warrior and trading groups as well that may have brought r1a. Sangam Literature already has legends linking southern dynasties to those in the north. Middle Indo-Aryan was the official language of most southern kingdom in the early first millenium so it seems reasonable to think that many of the elites were bilingual. I don't think the r1a in tribals is that hard to explain either. As I pointed out earlier the chenchus have a close relationship with certain important temples in the region and this probably reflects a long history of interaction with non tribal groups.

What I find inexplicable however is the result of certain studies on admixture dates. Moorjani(2013) for example claims vysyas (I am assuming this is the Telugu Arya vaishyas/ komati chetti caste) have been endogamous for 3000 years. It seems very hard to believe that a mercantile clearly urban community existed as an endogamous caste group even before the first towns in south India were founded.

[parasar]

...

Altai was partially z93 but based on phenotype and mtdna (and C y-dna) it looks Euro steppe and E Asian mixed

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25016250

Yes that is possible.

But the following have to be kept in mind.
1. Tarim R1a1 is M198+Z93-.
2. Early Neolithic Baikal (8000-6800 cal BP) has R1a1 M17. https://era.library.ualberta.ca/file...201509_PhD.pdf
3. The earliest layer with R1a1 at Tarim has C mtdna.
4. The earliest Eneolithic M417 sample from Ukraine is close to where mt C was found in Neolithic Ukraine, and the latter Neolithic is an extension from Siberia.
5. Phenotype of Siberian AG: "The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans ... earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE individual Afontova Gora 3,3 which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE"

[tipirneni]

Yep to resolve that conundrum, Tamil Brahmins moved South before 2.3ky but they received their last admixture @ 4.1ky so they were in the north prior to 500BCE but moved south before the Kushan admixture swept the north

There were clearly groups with R1a (not just Brahmins but Vellalars, Nairs others as R1a is nearly at 30% in the South on average and forms the largest haplogroup https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...1241/table/T1/) moving south before the Kushan wave which is why I think Davidskis 2k estimate is way too young for these R1a holders

As far as I understand, those dates are actual last admixture estimates - they do not average previous admixture dates

Check out this study with 1000 subjects
http://www.ias.ac.in/article/fulltex...0/02/0191-0202

Tamil Brahmins are supposed to have entered this region about 5 to 3
kya (Malhotra et al. 1981). Iyengar received mitochondrial genes from the Iyer greater than they contributed to them.
Brahmin groups did not exchange the genes with Agamudaiyar,
Chakkiliyar, Gavara Naidu, Meenavar, Nadar Hindu
and Parayan. Iyengar had equitable exchange of genes with
Agamudaiya Vellalar and Vanniyar.
when ran a clustering , checkout the tree

Exceptional features of branch D: Iyer and Iyengar (Brahmins,
priestly communities), Nattukkottai Chettiar (trading community)
and Veerakodi Vellalar (traditional agriculturist community)
clustered with the lower strata nonBrahmin groups.




Another paper Population Differentiation of Southern Indian Male
Lineages Correlates with Agricultural Expansions
Predating the Caste System
GaneshPrasad ArunKumar et al
The Brahmin populations in
the present study are also characterized by a significantly higher
frequency of R1a1-M17 relative to other TN groups, but without
any significant frequencies for HGs having a likely origin outside
India. The TN Brahmin populations also present a very similar
package of the most common HGs observed in 600 Brahmin
individuals from all over India [16]. We noted that the highest
STR variances for HG R1a1-M17 observed in SC and DLF,
along with the lack of population-specific clusters in the R1a1-
M17 network and the failure of BATWING to generate a
definitive modal tree for this HG, all argue against the
introduction of these paternal haplotypes through a single wave
of Brahmin (i.e. Indo-Aryan) migration into the region.


This suggests multiple waves of R1a from north however the mtdna mixture is pretty old & points to very early admixture in the south

[bmoney]

The beginings of urbanism in the south in the second half of the first millenium BCE owe something to the similar developments further north. There were probably not just migrations of brahmins and buddhist/jain monks to the south but movements of warrior and trading groups as well that may have brought r1a. Sangam Literature already has legends linking southern dynasties to those in the north. Middle Indo-Aryan was the official language of most southern kingdom in the early first millenium so it seems reasonable to think that many of the elites were bilingual. I don't think the r1a in tribals is that hard to explain either. As I pointed out earlier the chenchus have a close relationship with certain important temples in the region and this probably reflects a long history of interaction with non tribal groups.

What I find inexplicable however is the result of certain studies on admixture dates. Moorjani(2013) for example claims vysyas (I am assuming this is the Telugu Arya vaishyas/ komati chetti caste) have been endogamous for 3000 years. It seems very hard to believe that a mercantile clearly urban community existed as an endogamous caste group even before the first towns in south India were founded.

Middle Indo-Aryan was the official language of most southern kingdom in the early first millenium so it seems reasonable to think that many of the elites were bilingual. - which kingdom? I thought it was Sanskrit not middle Indo-Aryan

R1a in tribals goes far beyond the Chenchus who to me seem like a Banjara type population

[bmoney]

This suggests multiple waves of R1a from north however the mtdna mixture is pretty old & points to very early admixture in the south

Yep I discussed this paper in the other thread - interestingly it says the oldest expansion time of R1a Indian subclades are in Indus Valley pops (not sure why) and concluding R1a in South India came in multiple waves due to not able to construct a modal tree for the clade

Moreover, the recent discovery of new markers within R1a1-M17 has allowed Eastern European Y-lineages to be differentiated from those in Central/South Asia, locating the oldest expansion times with this lineage in Indus Valley populations, suggesting an earlier, possibly autochthonous origin of this HG in South Asia [68]. The Brahmin populations in the present study are also characterized by a significantly higher frequency of R1a1-M17 relative to other TN groups, but without any significant frequencies for HGs having a likely origin outside India.

We noted that the highest STR variances for HG R1a1-M17 observed in SC (scheduled caste) and DLF (dry land farmer), along with the lack of population-specific clusters in the R1a1-M17 network and the failure of BATWING to generate a definitive modal tree for this HG, all argue against the introduction of these paternal haplotypes through a single wave of Brahmin (i.e. Indo-Aryan) migration into the region.

It supports my speculation about incoming agricultural Y-lineages displacing local hunter-gatherers, who then occupied remote regions that were previously uninhabited

It is therefore possible that, upon agricultural expansion into previously non-cultivated areas, the present day tribal populations were displaced to more isolated regions, where they retained their mode of subsistence and genetic distinctiveness until the present day.

The caste system pre-existed (non Vedic) - but with the Vedic system superimposed. Agricultural expansion determined caste system and endogamous groups in Dravidian society

this is the first time (which we are aware of) that a genetic study showed clear evidences of the existence of long-standing endogamous population identities within a highly structured Indian society established prior to the regional implementation of the Varna system.

Further, these paternal genetic identities likely resulted as a byproduct of demographic processes that occurred during the creation of moving and static frontiers of agricultural expansions into TN

[tipirneni]

Middle Indo-Aryan was the official language of most southern kingdom in the early first millenium so it seems reasonable to think that many of the elites were bilingual. - which kingdom? I thought it was Sanskrit not middle Indo-Aryan

R1a in tribals goes far beyond the Chenchus who to me seem like a Banjara type population

http://www.ancient-origins.net/opini...part-ii-006084

There is a huge Megalithic places all over south & central India.Some of the early temples resemble these. You can see some of the older groups in Central India & South have high western Med portion in the Admixture compared to many communities. These might be small groups but very old. In India, archaeologists trace the majority of the megaliths to the Iron Age (1500 BC to 500 BC), though some sites precede the Iron Age, extending up to 2000 BC. http://www.livemint.com/Sundayapp/ah...-in-stone.html
https://selfstudyhistory.com/2015/01...ithic-culture/ Dravidian groups coming from West Asia by sea. Continued style of building by early temples & buddhist caves. Settlements in Vidharbha, TN, Kerala, KN. Some also in Gangetic valley.


http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/preh...etroglyphs.htm
http://www.wondermondo.com/Countries.../Bhimbetka.htm
At least 290,000 years old petroglyphs, paintings up to 15,000 years old, newest drawings - from the 11th - 14th century AD. Continued by early temples & buddhist caves.

[tipirneni]

Yep I discussed this paper in the other thread - interestingly it says the oldest expansion time of R1a Indian subclades are in Indus Valley pops (not sure why) and concluding R1a in South India came in multiple waves due to not able to construct a modal tree for the clade

Moreover, the recent discovery of new markers within R1a1-M17 has allowed Eastern European Y-lineages to be differentiated from those in Central/South Asia, locating the oldest expansion times with this lineage in Indus Valley populations, suggesting an earlier, possibly autochthonous origin of this HG in South Asia [68]. The Brahmin populations in the present study are also characterized by a significantly higher frequency of R1a1-M17 relative to other TN groups, but without any significant frequencies for HGs having a likely origin outside India.

We noted that the highest STR variances for HG R1a1-M17 observed in SC (scheduled caste) and DLF (dry land farmer), along with the lack of population-specific clusters in the R1a1-M17 network and the failure of BATWING to generate a definitive modal tree for this HG, all argue against the introduction of these paternal haplotypes through a single wave of Brahmin (i.e. Indo-Aryan) migration into the region.

It supports my speculation about incoming agricultural Y-lineages displacing local hunter-gatherers, who then occupied remote regions that were previously uninhabited

It is therefore possible that, upon agricultural expansion into previously non-cultivated areas, the present day tribal populations were displaced to more isolated regions, where they retained their mode of subsistence and genetic distinctiveness until the present day.

The caste system pre-existed (non Vedic) - but with the Vedic system superimposed. Agricultural expansion determined caste system and endogamous groups in Dravidian society

this is the first time (which we are aware of) that a genetic study showed clear evidences of the existence of long-standing endogamous population identities within a highly structured Indian society established prior to the regional implementation of the Varna system.

Further, these paternal genetic identities likely resulted as a byproduct of demographic processes that occurred during the creation of moving and static frontiers of agricultural expansions into TN

Everyone migrating from W Asia has to hit the IVC region either in Punjab or in Sindh. Maybe it is natural the people here have higher R1 variation/expansion over period of time due to myriad number of factors. In deccan/South there are these Cave culture, Megalithic culture & Later Copper/Iron Age expansion from IVC that may not harbor or harbor just small % R1 people compared to L & H & R2. R1 people might initially settled during Chalcolithic era for this migration there are puranic records pointing to Sage Agasthya moving to South. Then later in 500-200BC there is Iron age movement during Magadhan time (people from Anga/Vanga etc...). After that we have Buddhist elite from UP/Bihar moving south from 200BC to 200AD. These are early migrations.

Middle ages there are smaller groups R1 moving from north.