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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #1961
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    No doubt. It was not until the Gupt period that Sanskrit fully came into the forefront.

    Prior to that it was sporadic, and ironically used mainly by the so called "foreign" rulers - Shak Kshatrap, Kushan, Pahlav, etc. Even the Ghosundi inscription of Parasariputr Gajyan gives the name of the chief as Sarvtat (perhaps a Pahlav cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haurvatat).

    As I have mentioned before, these were absolutely not foreigners to "India," but foreigners only to pauranic and modern historians from the point of view of the Prakrit/Pali belt. These were the Shak, Tukhars, and Gurjjars - all living in the Indus area.

    The Gupt I see as a marriage of sorts [literally too perhaps] between the Pali/Prakrit tradition and the Sanskrit one, with the Gupts adopting Sanskrit with a vengeance. So much so that just in a few short years Sanskrit had spread in Inner Asia, South Asia - Pushppur to Banga to Damil, to even SE Asia - Vietnam and Java. Indic eras, numerology, scripts, thought, works, all spread throughout the region.

    Gupt script.
    "Gupta script, any of a group of Indian alphabetic writing systems (sometimes modified to represent syllables instead of single sounds) derived from a northern Indian alphabet of the 4th–6th century AD. The ruling Gupta state at that time gave the script its name. It was developed out of Brāhmī and was spread with the Gupta empire over large areas of conquered territory, with the result that the Gupta alphabet was the ancestor (for the most part via Devanāgarī) of most later Indian scripts. The original Gupta alphabet had 37 letters, including 5 vowels, and was written from left to right. Four main subtypes of Gupta script developed from the original alphabet: eastern, western, southern, and Central Asian. The Central Asian Gupta can be further divided into Central Asian Slanting Gupta and its Agnean and Kuchean variants and Central Asian Cursive Gupta, or Khotanese. A western branch of eastern Gupta gave rise to the Siddhamatrka script (c. AD 500), which, in turn, evolved into the Devanāgarī alphabet (c. AD 700), the most widespread of the modern Indian scripts."
    http://www.britannica.com/topic/Gupta-script

    Gupt numerals.
    "If we examine the route which led from the Brahmi numerals to our present symbols (and ignore the many other systems which evolved from the Brahmi numerals) then we next come to the Gupta symbols. The Gupta period is that during which the Gupta dynasty ruled over the Magadha state in northeastern India, and this was from the early 4th century AD to the late 6th century AD. The Gupta numerals developed from the Brahmi numerals and were spread over large areas by the Gupta empire as they conquered territory."
    http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/..._numerals.html

    The Legends of the Panjab
    "Kahte Shahr Ujjain Rao nit karte bhog bilasa. Gaur Bangala, des jinhon ka tyag dia biswasa."
    https://books.google.com/books?id=ulcIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA2

    Samudrgupt's inscription matches this massive spread.
    "first capturing, and thereafter showing the favour of releasing, all the kings of Dakshiṇāpatha ... [list]"
    "the forcible extermination of many kings of Āryāvarta ... [list]"
    "obeisance by such frontier rulers ... [list]"
    "by the Dēvaputra-Shāhi-Shāhānushāhi and the Śaka lords"
    "all Island countries, such as Siṁhala and others."
    ARCHAEOLOGICAL SURVEY OF INDIA, CORPUS INSCRIPTIONUM INDICARUM, VOLUME III
    INSCRIPTIONS OF THE EARLY GUPTA KINGS
    I don't think the tusharas, shakas and even the kambojas lived near the sindhu. If any thing the boundary between iranic and indo-aryan speakers was further to the west until a few centuries ago when the pashtuns expanded to the east. This is supported by the indo-aryan toponyms and hydronyms extending upto eastern afghanistan. This doesn't rule out the fact that they may have been culturally indianized (atleast the kambojas) from very early times. I don't know how much of an effect their descendantd had on modern indians though

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  3. #1962
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishvamitra View Post
    I don't think the tusharas, shakas and even the kambojas lived near the sindhu. If any thing the boundary between iranic and indo-aryan speakers was further to the west until a few centuries ago when the pashtuns expanded to the east. This is supported by the indo-aryan toponyms and hydronyms extending upto eastern afghanistan. This doesn't rule out the fact that they may have been culturally indianized (atleast the kambojas) from very early times. I don't know how much of an effect their descendantd had on modern indians though
    "tusharas, shakas and even the kambojas"
    When was the first historical mention of them? And where was the geographical placement?

  4. #1963
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    "tusharas, shakas and even the kambojas"
    When was the first historical mention of them? And where was the geographical placement?
    Very often they are just generically placed in the northwest along with greeks, lampakas, daradas etc. Kambojas are mentioned by panini and yaska in the 5th century, and a aupamanyava kamboja is mentioned in the vamsha brahmana. They were probably the East Iranic people settled immediately to the west gandhara. They are often mentioned in connection with horses. On the other hand shakas and tusharas appear only in the epics and puranas mostly in lists of ethnic groups or in stories dealing with the origin of certain foreign tribes. Apparently the Matsya purana mentions the river chakshu (a corruption of vakshu/oxus) flowing through the lands of the shakas and tusharas. That would clearly locate them in central asia.

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  6. #1964
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishvamitra View Post
    Very often they are just generically placed in the northwest along with greeks, lampakas, daradas etc. Kambojas are mentioned by panini and yaska in the 5th century, and a aupamanyava kamboja is mentioned in the vamsha brahmana. They were probably the East Iranic people settled immediately to the west gandhara. They are often mentioned in connection with horses. On the other hand shakas and tusharas appear only in the epics and puranas mostly in lists of ethnic groups or in stories dealing with the origin of certain foreign tribes. Apparently the Matsya purana mentions the river chakshu (a corruption of vakshu/oxus) flowing through the lands of the shakas and tusharas. That would clearly locate them in central asia.
    BMAC location

  7. #1965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishvamitra View Post
    Very often they are just generically placed in the northwest along with greeks, lampakas, daradas etc. Kambojas are mentioned by panini and yaska in the 5th century, and a aupamanyava kamboja is mentioned in the vamsha brahmana. They were probably the East Iranic people settled immediately to the west gandhara. They are often mentioned in connection with horses. On the other hand shakas and tusharas appear only in the epics and puranas mostly in lists of ethnic groups or in stories dealing with the origin of certain foreign tribes. Apparently the Matsya purana mentions the river chakshu (a corruption of vakshu/oxus) flowing through the lands of the shakas and tusharas. That would clearly locate them in central asia.
    The Shak:
    They are I believe historically are first mentioned in the incription at Persepolis:
    "Thatagush : Harauvatish : Hidush : Gadra : Sak : Maka" This is an Indus region grouping.
    Ptolemy is later but also places them on the Indus.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=0t8UAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA327
    When they were invited by the Jain monk to attack Ujjain, they came from the west bank of the Indus next to the Persians - "surir gata eva Sindhornadyastatam Paschimparsvakulam" - also known as the Saka bank of the Indus - "Sindhu-parakulammi sagakulam gao mum"
    There is no reason to belive that these Shak were not already in the Sakastana area since first evidenced in history. That these Shak were different from those others qualified as Paradarya, Haumavarga, etc. looks certain.

    The Kamboj:
    Asoka - "Yon, Kamboj, Nabhak" and "Yon, Kamboj, Gandhar"
    So the grouping is with the Yavans, Gandhars and Nabhaks.
    Based on the above I would place the Kamboj either in modern East Afghanistan or West Punjab.

    The Tukhars:
    They are somewhat of a mystery. I am inclined to belive they were from the Hatak (Himtal) region of Tibet - close to the source of the Vakshu, Sindhu, Sarayu, and Sit. https://books.google.com/books?id=oNhVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156
    They came to occupy a vast area which became known as Tukharistan (Bactria, Sinkiang, Pamir, etc. ). See the vast region called either Tu-hu-lo or formerly Tu-hu-lo. https://books.google.com/books?id=oNhVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA37
    So I would agree with you that that matches what the Matsya is saying.

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  9. #1966
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    ...

    The Tukhars:
    They are somewhat of a mystery. I am inclined to belive they were from the Hatak (Himtal) region of Tibet - close to the source of the Vakshu, Sindhu, Sarayu, and Sit. https://books.google.com/books?id=oNhVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156
    They came to occupy a vast area which became known as Tukharistan (Bactria, Sinkiang, Pamir, etc. ). See the vast region called either Tu-hu-lo or formerly Tu-hu-lo. https://books.google.com/books?id=oNhVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA37
    So I would agree with you that that matches what the Matsya is saying.
    Regarding the Yuechi, from Ebizur:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    The second pair of characters (月氏 Yuzhī) is the relatively common Chinese spelling that uses an irregular pronunciation of the second character (氏 as zhī instead of sh). These characters literally mean "Moon Clan." The first pair of characters (月支 Yuzhī) is the alternative Chinese spelling that uses a regular pronunciation of the second character (支 as zhī). These characters literally mean "Moon Branch (of a family, a chain store, etc.)" or "Moon Support."

    Since at least the late 1940s, some scholars have been of an opinion that the first character (月 yu "moon") is an ancient scribal error for 肉 ru "meat." This opinion seems to be founded on a comment made by a Sng-era scholar regarding the pronunciation of the 月氏 or 月支 of ancient texts. The forms of the Chinese characters for "moon" and "meat" may be easily confused in some styles; in fact, the standard square form of the character for "meat" when used as a radical (i.e. a part of a Chinese character that broadly indicates a semantic category to which the morpheme represented by the character belongs) is identical to the standard square form of the Chinese character for "moon," just compressed toward the left side of the square. This similitude has resulted in the use in the Japanese language of the name niku-dzuki "meat moon" for the "meat" radical of Chinese characters.
    Vajji:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Ma...C&pg=SL1-PA170

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  11. #1967
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    The population geneticist Tatiana Karafet and other researchers (2014) point out that K2b1, its subclades and P* are virtually restricted geographically to South East Asia and Oceania.Whereas, in a striking contrast, P1 (P-M45)and its primary subclades Q and R now make up "the most frequent haplogroup in Europe, the Americas, and Central Asia and South Asia". According to Karafet et al., the estimated dates for the branching of K, K2, K2b and P point to a "rapid diversification" within K2 "that likely occurred in Southeast Asia", with subsequent "westward expansions" of P*, P1, Q and R.
    K2c-P261 is found in Bali, and K2d-P402 is found in Java. K2b2*-P295 is found among the Aeta people of the Philippines, in Timor, in Sumba, and in Sulawesi. Most of the K2 branches are found in insular Southeast Asia.


    Any idea what would have caused the rapid expansion of K-M526 in SE Asia? Presumably this is post-Toba and pre-LGM. Could it be dog domestication? On the other hand doesn't it have to be pre-Australian/Papuan migration (which probably happened pre-dog domestication)? Could it be Upper Paleolithic technology innovation or is that too late too? Could the wave of volcanic eruptions in Europe ca. 40kya have been good for SE Asia while bad for Europe?


    It appears that C splits off before K in a separate and earlier wave that is also pre-Australian settlement.
    However, whatever one theorizes from haploid evidence (mtDNA, Y-DNA), the autosomal evidence gives a far broader, and deeper, account. Hammer et al had first pointed out that the autosomal DNA evidence nevertheless sees South Asia as a distinct staging point of migrations throughout Eurasia, SE Asia and the New World (outside Africa).

    Another thing, also mentioned by Karafet et al., is the possible massive extinction of haplogroups in northern Eurasia. This is possible in case northern Eurasia was the scene of exceptional selective forces, what I have always deemed very likely. Also MA-1 is a testimony of genetic purge, including its extinct mutations at mtDNA U.
    Last but not least, albeit not mentioned by Karafet et al., is the possibility that some mutations in the YDNA tree are reversed to the effect that Hg R is actually older than Hg P. This would explain MA-1 probably better. It is still remarkable that Hg R1a has the ape-like SRY10831.2 mutation, to date only shared by the African YDNA A haplogroup.


    the great majority of European autosomal DNA came from the F branch (G,I,J, and such). Only a 20% max came from North Eurasia (R,Q), which is West Eurasian anyway.

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  13. #1968
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    ...
    Last but not least, albeit not mentioned by Karafet et al., is the possibility that some mutations in the YDNA tree are reversed to the effect that Hg R is actually older than Hg P. This would explain MA-1 probably better. It is still remarkable that Hg R1a has the ape-like SRY10831.2 mutation, to date only shared by the African YDNA A haplogroup.
    ...
    This has close to ~0 chance. Mutations repeat at the same site and that is what has happened here - SRY10831 for R1a has just mutated back to the ancestral state. There is no need to reverse the whole tree to make it stand on a twig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    This has close to ~0 chance. Mutations repeat at the same site and that is what has happened here - SRY10831 for R1a has just mutated back to the ancestral state. There is no need to reverse the whole tree to make it stand on a twig.
    People are speculating on the - back mutation on R1 tree. R seems to be connected to major expansion event into North Eurasia that is not obvious.

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    A post at Eurogenes blog referred to this diagram:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/20/s...igrations.html


    To me it looks like Reich is seeing three inputs into Northern South Asia - node C - green (pre SE Andronovo, or BMAC?), red (Indus?), and black (Iran?), apparently over a 700 year period 2200 BC to 1500 BC.

    Reich's body seems to covering Iran and Caucasus just pops up next to his neck.

    Interestingly, a direct input into Northern South Asia from Sintashta/NW Andronovo has been erased. Also the green arrows between SE Andronovo and Iran and Northern South Asia are bidirectional from an intermediate zone (BMAC?).
    Last edited by parasar; 03-22-2018 at 02:51 PM.

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