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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    If someone could dumb this stuff down for me I would really appreciate it. Just looking at the Harappworld spreadsheet, Brahmins seem to score much higher NE Euro but also higher Caucasian and Baloch than their lower caste counterparts which could easily be explained if the wave of Indo-Aryans came mixed with Caucasus/Neolithic ancestry in addition to European.

    However, I'm just lost at why it's believed there were multiple waves of Indo-European migrations to the subcontinent. What are the signs and more importantly, which of these waves were responsible for establishing the caste system?
    the caste system likely existed before Indo-Aryans as it exists in SA societies with minimal steppe admixture where genetic structure between groups is deeply entrenched

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    Did they say there was 10-15% Steppe admixture in the Swat samples? And isn't that lower than what is found there today? Which implies more Steppe admixture came later? (i.e, Scythians or what have you)

    They haven't even put Haryana Jats on their plots. I found one with 17% WHG in ANE K7 on Gedmatch (like 20% NE-Euro and 4% Atl-Med in Harappa). That's 25% straight European-like admixture probably 2000 years after the fact. At some point there had to have been 30, 40, maybe even 50% Steppe-admixed people in Haryana, and lots of them (and undoubtedly many more without).
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494*) (FTDNA Kit 311047) (YFull: YF68408), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29*) (FTDNA Kit 329181) (YFull: YF65256))

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    the caste system likely existed before Indo-Aryans as it exists in SA societies with minimal steppe admixture where genetic structure between groups is deeply entrenched
    Previous papers on South Asians suggested ANI and ASI "solidified" around the same time as the current caste system (circa 2kya). Before that, they were in flux due to mixing. But that mixing could just mean the Aryans becoming Indo-Aryans on top of an already stratified population, who knows without aDNA from that time/place.
    Last edited by Dr_McNinja; 04-03-2018 at 02:31 AM.
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494*) (FTDNA Kit 311047) (YFull: YF68408), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29*) (FTDNA Kit 329181) (YFull: YF65256))

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    Did they say there was 10-15% Steppe admixture in the Swat samples? And isn't that lower than what is found there today? Which implies more Steppe admixture came later? (i.e, Scythians or what have you)

    They haven't even put Haryana Jats on their plots. I found one with 17% WHG in ANE K7 on Gedmatch (like 20% NE-Euro and 4% Atl-Med in Harappa). That's 25% straight European-like admixture probably 2000 years after the fact. At some point there had to have been 30, 40, maybe even 50% Steppe-admixed people in Haryana, and lots of them (and undoubtedly many more without).
    No steppe (Euro) admixture in the Swat samples - here are the admixture averages per site, the teal and red Euro components (mainly teal EHG) only exist in the steppe samples

    Also only one R1a in the Swat samples, so steppe came after the time of these Swat samples.

    The Swat samples were mostly Iran farmer, Anatolian farmer, Siberian HG (Keltiminar) & AASI by admixture

    Confused about where the Anatolian farmer came from though

    Attachment 22450

    y-dna haps, copied post:

    Of decent coverage samples, at the 7 Swat Valley Iron Age-Early Historic sites:
    - 4 R2a(3a2b) total, at 4 sites
    - 6 L1a total at 3 sites - 1 site with 50% L1a (4/8)
    - 2 H1a1(a) total, at 2 sites
    - 2 Q1b2 total, at 2 sites
    - At the Early Historic site of Butkara 2/2 J1
    - At the Iron Age site Udegram 8/9 E1b1b1b2-Z830 (including a pair of relatives), some or all of it E1b1b1b2a-M123.
    - 1 each of J2a1, G2a2a, C1b1a1a1, R1a-Z93, R1b-U106 (?).

    The NE Euro in Haryana Jatts likely came from a later wave as it is not widespread, so later waves cannot be ruled out though they probably were not widespread in effect.

    Haryana and Sikh Jatts are distinct compared to their neighbours due to their L1a2 levels though, not R1a
    Last edited by bmoney; 04-03-2018 at 02:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    Previous papers on South Asians suggested ANI and ASI "solidified" around the same time as the current caste system (circa 2kya). Before that, they were in flux due to mixing. But that mixing could just mean the Aryans becoming Indo-Aryans on top of an already stratified population, who knows without aDNA from that time/place.
    Yeah I think the latter is more likely - as per Razibs speculation it seems elite Indo-Aryans mixed with the elite of the incumbent population and started to resemble them over time ex Tamil Brahmans

    So if anything they further entrenched the system

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Yeah I think the latter is more likely - as per Razibs speculation it seems elite Indo-Aryans mixed with the elite of the incumbent population and started to resemble them over time ex Tamil Brahmans

    So if anything they further entrenched the system
    This is a very general question but have there been any caste systems (with an underlying racial/ethnic basis) as established as India's in other historical civilizations?
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494*) (FTDNA Kit 311047) (YFull: YF68408), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29*) (FTDNA Kit 329181) (YFull: YF65256))

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    This is a very general question but have there been any caste systems (with an underlying racial/ethnic basis) as established as India's in other historical civilizations?
    Confucian Civilizations have had similar systems, though not as rigid but certain outcast groups like for e.g. the Burakumin of Japan have historically suffered and have been ostracized. Also, in Latin Americans there was also a pseudo-caste like system brought in place by the Colonisers. None obviously compare to India's however of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    No steppe (Euro) admixture in the Swat samples - here are the admixture averages per site, the teal and red Euro components (mainly teal EHG) only exist in the steppe samples

    Also only one R1a in the Swat samples, so steppe came after the time of these Swat samples.

    The Swat samples were mostly Iran farmer, Anatolian farmer, Siberian HG (Keltiminar) & AASI by admixture

    Confused about where the Anatolian farmer came from though

    Attachment 22450

    y-dna haps, copied post:

    Of decent coverage samples, at the 7 Swat Valley Iron Age-Early Historic sites:
    - 4 R2a(3a2b) total, at 4 sites
    - 6 L1a total at 3 sites - 1 site with 50% L1a (4/8)
    - 2 H1a1(a) total, at 2 sites
    - 2 Q1b2 total, at 2 sites
    - At the Early Historic site of Butkara 2/2 J1
    - At the Iron Age site Udegram 8/9 E1b1b1b2-Z830 (including a pair of relatives), some or all of it E1b1b1b2a-M123.
    - 1 each of J2a1, G2a2a, C1b1a1a1, R1a-Z93, R1b-U106 (?).

    The NE Euro in Haryana Jatts likely came from a later wave as it is not widespread, so later waves cannot be ruled out though they probably were not widespread in effect.

    Haryana and Sikh Jatts are distinct compared to their neighbours due to their L1a2 levels though, not R1a
    The admixture table is not clear enough. Go to the supplementary material and check the models for the swat samples. They constantly get 10-15% steppe(not West Siberia N).

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesus View Post
    The admixture table is not clear enough. Go to the supplementary material and check the models for the swat samples. They constantly get 10-15% steppe(not West Siberia N).
    Yep I was just about to post that they also published this which is contradictory to the admixture graph

    Finally, we examined our Swat Valley time transect from 1200 BCE to 1 CE. While the earliest
    450 group of samples (SPGT) is genetically very similar to the Indus_Periphery samples from the
    451 sites of Gonur and Shahr-i-Sokhta, they also differ significantly in harboring Steppe_MLBA
    452 ancestry (~22%). This provides direct evidence for Steppe_MLBA ancestry being integrated into
    South Asian groups in the 2 453 nd millennium BCE, and is also consistent with the evidence of
    454 southward expansions of Steppe_MLBA groups through Turan at this time via outliers from the
    455 main BMAC cluster from 2000-1500 BCE.
    Later samples from the Swat time transect from the
    1 456 st millennium BCE had higher proportions of Steppe and AASI derived ancestry more similar to
    peer-reviewed) is the author/funder. It is made available under a CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 International license.
    bioRxiv preprint first posted online Mar. 31, 2018; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/292581. The copyright holder for this preprint (which was not
    15
    457 that found on the Indian Cline, showing that there was an increasing percolation of Steppe
    458 derived ancestry into the region and additional admixture with the ASI through time.


    What type of pop provided the 22% Steppe MLBA ancestry to the Swat Valley samples? It couldn't have been R1a
    Last edited by bmoney; 04-03-2018 at 05:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Yep I was just about to post that they also published this which is contradictory to the admixture graph

    Finally, we examined our Swat Valley time transect from 1200 BCE to 1 CE. While the earliest
    450 group of samples (SPGT) is genetically very similar to the Indus_Periphery samples from the
    451 sites of Gonur and Shahr-i-Sokhta, they also differ significantly in harboring Steppe_MLBA
    452 ancestry (~22%). This provides direct evidence for Steppe_MLBA ancestry being integrated into
    South Asian groups in the 2 453 nd millennium BCE, and is also consistent with the evidence of
    454 southward expansions of Steppe_MLBA groups through Turan at this time via outliers from the
    455 main BMAC cluster from 2000-1500 BCE.
    Later samples from the Swat time transect from the
    1 456 st millennium BCE had higher proportions of Steppe and AASI derived ancestry more similar to
    peer-reviewed) is the author/funder. It is made available under a CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 International license.
    bioRxiv preprint first posted online Mar. 31, 2018; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/292581. The copyright holder for this preprint (which was not
    15
    457 that found on the Indian Cline, showing that there was an increasing percolation of Steppe
    458 derived ancestry into the region and additional admixture with the ASI through time.


    What type of pop provided the 22% Steppe MLBA ancestry to the Swat Valley samples? It couldn't have been R1a

    It looks like a type 0 22% corresponds with the "Anatolia" but the proximal models have them around 10-15% Steppe, the later Cemetery H has around 18%, but also has higher AASI going from approx 21.6 to 30% AASI.
    Note SPGT is from Swat /KPK so these populations even today are less AASI , cemetery H is from the Northern Punjab, where there are more AASI shifted people even today.
    Last edited by pegasus; 04-03-2018 at 05:53 AM.

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