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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    I agree with most of what thorin wrote above, but just to add, I doubt any GROUP or tribe in the northwestern vicinity of Bharat ever looked like Thor lol. Nordic phenotypes popping up in central Asia or Siberia in modern populations are more likely from later conquests by central Asian groups like Huns or Mongols or Turks and bringing in women and slaves from Eastern Europe. Reason I hold this view is because the time lines for whatever is the most recent major chunks of shared ancestry between South Asia, central Asia, west Asia and Europe are, is still too old or rather almost simultaneous for Thor phenotype to have arisen and stabilized in Europe. Otherwise we'd be having a substantial portion of south Asian population also being blue eyed and even blond. Having AASI ancestry wouldn't necessarily negate or make light features recessive because WHG were also apparently Onge complexioned. Similarly the tropics have produced blondism independent of steppe ancestry as seen in some Melanesians I believe (reason I bring this up is because this shows blondism doesn't necessarily have to be selected against for survival in tropics).
    I get the gist of your argument, however the Kazakh steppe probably had some blonds and blue-eyed among them due to the variation in ancestral components. Genetiker will run through the phenotype calls

    But the EHG were light skinned, the Iran_N brown and the AASI probably Papuan in skin colour - so you could say that the steppe cline is associated with lighter skin and a more Europid phenotype like the Kalash

    If the Siberian HG were ANE like, they were also brown skinned

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    Quote Originally Posted by thorin View Post
    Lol I was trying to be a bit cheeky! The other cheesy corny line I was going to close with, but didn't use:

    This all sounds to me like some guy who looks like Rajnikanth convincing some guy who looks like Hrithik Roshan that Indra is the god we should all follow.
    Rajnikanth is a Maratha m8, actually hed be a great stand in for Indus periphery due to mainly Iran N and AASI ancestry with little to no steppe

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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    Maurya etc is too late for Brahmins in south. Ravana was a Brahmin ruler in Sri Lanka. Believe the southern traditions hold an Agastya muni coming down from the Himalayas into the Deccan.
    I just remembered the birth of Agyasta, in the lines of in-vitro fertilization from the antiquity! He is my fav Rig veda mantra writer

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    I get the gist of your argument, however the Kazakh steppe probably had some blonds and blue-eyed among them due to the variation in ancestral components. Genetiker will run through the phenotype calls

    But the EHG were light skinned, the Iran_N brown and the AASI probably Papuan in skin colour - so you could say that the steppe cline is associated with lighter skin and a more Europid phenotype like the Kalash

    If the Siberian HG were ANE like, they were also brown skinned
    Possibly but in all likelihood they probably didnít look too dissimilar to central asians and Afghans from today (minus the much stronger Asian component) so some green or maybe blue eyes and brown hair but majority are brown or light brown or what I call Persian-white. The blond hair and blue eyes of the Kalash are millennia of positive selection in the mountains just like it was in Ukraine. I recently read a DNA paper on how Ukrainians from the Pontic steppe today look very different from their ancestors buried in the kurgans.
    Last edited by thorin; 04-04-2018 at 12:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Rajnikanth is a Maratha m8, actually hed be a great stand in for Indus periphery due to mainly Iran N and AASI ancestry with little to no steppe
    Youíre probably totally correct on this. Lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    (I personally don't believe Indus Civilisation people spoke Dravidian; they may have spoken some extinct but divergent Dravidian perhaps but Dravidian is unlikely in my view- though the recent results about all these Coorghis, Reddy_Telangana, etc. having high Indus_Periphery-like ancestry are making me tilt a little bit). I would absolutely love to be demolished regarding this but I would like to ultimately know why Indus Civilisation descendants shifted language. (I'm not an anti-Indo-Aryan or pro-Dravidian or a covert-Dravidian-agenda-pusher or anything of the sort; just want to know the truth)
    Parpola and Mahadevan are both proponents of Dravidian IVC. I personally believe the IVC language is more related to Brahui and only distantly related to South Dravidian, as the latter absorbed AASI features from the peninsula possibly from its genesis

    In regards to the Coorghis, my ancestral village is not too far from Coorg and I can say with certainty that they are as phenotypically different to the AASI-like Paniya/Irula as their genetic distance would suggest

    Using deduction as the Coorghis are low in steppe adna, the only other ancestral component that separates them from the Paniya/Irula is the Indus periphery component.

    The same can be said about the Toda in regards to genetic distance with their Nilgiri neighbours. The Toda are predominantly J and L by y-dna compared to their F and H neighbours
    Last edited by bmoney; 04-04-2018 at 02:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thorin View Post
    Possibly but in all likelihood they probably didn’t look too dissimilar to central asians and Afghans from today (minus the much stronger Asian component) so some green or maybe blue eyes and brown hair but majority are brown or light brown or what I call Persian-white. The blond hair and blue eyes of the Kalash are millennia of positive selection in the mountains just like it was in Ukraine. I recently read a DNA paper on how Ukrainians from the Pontic steppe today look very different from their ancestors buried in the kurgans.
    agreed, though I'd add that the Kalash have low levels of genetically distant AASI which makes selection for traits like blond hair more likely
    Last edited by bmoney; 04-04-2018 at 12:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thorin View Post
    I just checked... He mentions Indra as non-IE but feels it has a Uralic connection (which I disagree with - I feel this is harappan). He also states Prajapati, Vak, and Rudra are survivors from the Harappan pantheon (though these might not be their original Harappan names). I thought he mentioned Visnu as well last time i read this book, but I can't seem to find it right now.

    I think in either case, the point I'm making is that there is religious continuity from the IVC tradition to the Gangetic tradition - this is under-appreciated by most people who write on the subject I feel. On the other hand, the political and economic landscape changes dramatically, which advantages the IE speakers.

    This is my speculative take on why there is new language and vigour at the leadership level, lots of ethnic mixing, etc but no invasion. The Indo-Aryans (who are starting to look semi-Indian already due to the AASI mixing in the BMAC) respect the Dravidians and their cultural/religious traditions, and the economically floundering Dravidians are open to have some new leadership and ideas. This is all for the Dravidians that move North and East... The Dravidians who move south continue to flounder for a bit longer before eventually figuring out new economic models and systems which is why the emergence of kingdoms down there takes a bit longer (but they get to keep their religion AND their language).

    Eventually Maurya, etc conquer most of the subcontinent and allow people to keep their language etc (again because there is mutual respect for that) but in that process a lot of brahmins etc move down there and probably introduce, solidify and integrated themselves into an existing caste strcuture (or possibly create one).

    Obviously this is all just pure speculation....
    couldnt agree more

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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    I agree that Indus Periphery lacking steppe is probably the only and most informative piece in this study along with the elevated steppe in the later Swat valley samples. There's something there definitely. But again it might all be held inside the now mysterious AASI which once again, isn't aDNA derived but rather aDNA-un-derived lol
    Genetically we don't know if Indus periphery is really like the IVC as they presume ("Indus Periphery individuals are providing us with the first direct look at the ancestry of peoples of the IVC"). Why shouldn't the Indus Valley be pretty much like the pre-historic Swat samples, rather than the Indus periphery? If anything the later 350BC historical period Swat samples are showing an even further eastern - Magadhan influence.

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    You never know with India - I wouldn't be surprised at all if you were right and the IVC proper samples throw some new curveball for everyone. I think the mistake that a lot of western indologists and scientists make when looking at the evidence is that they think of India as the final ending point in what is a European journey. When in fact, the real story is the story of Hinduism and how it evolves - and while the conversion of some central asian IE speakers into Hinduism is a very important chapter, it is still only a chapter in a broader story. So while they have great evidence (like the Indus periphery or aasi samples in BMAC, or archaeology at BMAC and Indus), they are not inclined to deploy the evidence to tell a story about the evolution of hinduism. Even in Parpola's book, its almost like 2 different books - one about the dravidian speakers, and the other about the IE speakers. He tries to be fair but really doesn't focus on the interaction between the two. Most of them though just want to tell the IE story with India as the end point. Or they focus on only IE speakers contribution to hinduism (who they clearly appear to think of as european and not the complex ethnic and cultural group they become by the time they hit southern central asia/tajikistan etc)

    I think this is what gets the conservative right wing crowd in India all riled up. Most serious people even in that crowd know that there are complex genetics at work, and its obviously clear that a language family doesn't determine one's hindu-ness. But people perceive that all the science (including the genetics) are simply employed to tell the story of the journey a group of people take from somewhere west (steppe, iran, who knows) to reach India, and they don't seem to care all about telling the grander story about whats happening in India.

    Perhaps this is not their responsibility - you can't blame people for only being interested in what they think their part of a story is. Anyways, i'll stop droning on...
    Last edited by thorin; 04-04-2018 at 02:24 AM.

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