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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #2561
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Ah yes the infamous Lemurians, the OIT of South India.

    They tend to not be very vocal though, at least on genica
    Oh my God, you should visit the Dravidian languages corner of Quora once. It's Devaneya Pavanar, Tamil-is-the-mother-of-all-languages, Indo-European-descended-from-Dravidian, cutie fruity folk etymologies (completely baseless and silly ones at that), only-Tamil-must-be-classical-language, Tamil's-older-than-every-other-X, Sanskrit-begins-in-100BC(?)-only-since-written-Sanskrit-became-available-from-then-only, Phoenician-script-derives-from-Tamil-Brahmi-via-northern-Brahmis, etc. etc. all over the place. I made it a point to downvote each and every such ridiculous answer there. It almost became a ritual for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Yep and no one said Indo-Aryans didn't pick up substrate on their way in.

    Modern Hinduism is almost nothing like Vedic Hinduism
    I would say that varies according to sect , region and caste. Hinduism has a huge array of sects , within that they seem to cline from very Vedic centered and Monotheists like the Arya Samaj to groups which border on the very Agama aspects, which seems to be the more mainstream version you are talking about I think. Some regional groups show local absorption of culture , like Sindhi Hindus have absorbed significant Sikh and Sufi elements . While there might be considerable deviations , I would still say Vedic Hinduism is the backbone , as the main rituals like death, marriage, offerings, births, threading are determined by Vedic afaik.
    Last edited by pegasus; 04-29-2018 at 02:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    All of this loony-tunes talk about the supposed impossibilities surrounding the Indo-Aryan speakers aside, I'm much more impressed with South Asian HGs and how much they seemingly still contribute to modern South-Asian populations:

    Code:
    Model 1 based on:
    
    Sintashta-MLBA,0.125573,0.114722,0.057578,0.080136,0.010215,0.028951,0.005466,0.003729,-0.018506,-0.029422,-0.002116,0.001064,-0.00282,-0.021531,0.023051,0.012694,-0.004685,0.000282,-0.000568,-0.000117,-0.006311,0.002365,0.003173,0.007409,-0.003817
    West-Siberia-N,0.105855,-0.060424,0.097486,0.199292,-0.082631,0.045738,-0.041949,-0.04719,-0.03344,-0.09212,0.019487,-0.010641,0.027354,-0.071908,0.025923,0.01664,-0.01356,-0.006588,-0.000377,0.003252,-0.030134,0.010943,0.024095,0.007471,-0.010119
    Ganj-Dareh-N,0.044012,0.06804,-0.15374,0.002369,-0.121869,0.019057,0.017391,-0.003307,-0.083037,-0.0554,-0.000325,-0.004796,0.006145,-0.009496,0.029587,0.058826,-0.008084,0.009882,0.011103,-0.036226,0.0094,-0.02708,-0.011626,-0.037917,0.025746
    Paniya,0.010244,-0.157407,-0.190446,0.13706,-0.052317,0.054941,-0.002898,0.017538,0.084059,0.054306,0.001786,0.00045,-0.003717,0.013533,-0.025787,-0.026518,0.009866,0.000633,-0.005992,0.028764,0.00678,0.012406,-0.008134,0.003856,-0.008382
    (Also added in Dai for Bengalis)
    
    Note that Paniyas seem to be about 80% AASI (Onge-like) and about 20% Iran-Neolithic-related according to nMonte.
    
    Results:
    
    distance%=3.4549
    
             Brahmin
    
    Paniya 49.6
    Ganj-Dareh-N 24.2
    Sintashta-MLBA 23.4
    West-Siberia-N 2.8
    
    --
    
    distance%=3.7223
    
             Brahmin-TN
    
    Paniya 55.2
    Ganj-Dareh-N 27.2
    Sintashta-MLBA 15
    West-Siberia-N 2.6
    
    --
    
    distance%=3.5251
    
             Kshatriya
    
    Paniya 54.2
    Ganj-Dareh-N 23.8
    Sintashta-MLBA 18.2
    West-Siberia-N 3.8
    
    --
    
    distance%=3.1138
    
             Punjabi
    
    Paniya 60.6
    Ganj-Dareh-N 22
    Sintashta-MLBA 13.8
    West-Siberia-N 3.6
    
    --
    
    distance%=3.3953
    
             Punjabi-Lahore
    
    Paniya 63.2
    Ganj-Dareh-N 21.2
    Sintashta-MLBA 13.8
    West-Siberia-N 1.8
    
    --
    
    distance%=4.087
    
             Uttar-Pradesh
    
    Paniya 72.4
    Ganj-Dareh-N 13.6
    Sintashta-MLBA 11.4
    West-Siberia-N 2.6
    
    --
    
    distance%=3.7179
    
             Bengali
    
    Paniya 68.6
    Ganj-Dareh-N 15.8
    Sintashta-MLBA 7.2
    Dai 4.2
    West-Siberia-N 4.2
    
    --
    
    distance%=3.0322
    
             Bengali-Bangladesh
    
    Paniya 68.4
    Ganj-Dareh-N 15.6
    Sintashta-MLBA 7.6
    Dai 4.2
    West-Siberia-N 4.2
    
    --
    
    distance%=3.092
    
             Sindhi
    
    Ganj-Dareh-N 39
    Paniya 35.4
    Sintashta-MLBA 24.8
    West-Siberia-N 0.8
    
    --
    
    distance%=4.4551
    
             Burusho
    
    Paniya 35.4
    Ganj-Dareh-N 32
    Sintashta-MLBA 21.6
    West-Siberia-N 11
    
    ----
    
    Model 2 based on:
    
    Sintashta-MLBA,0.125573,0.114722,0.057578,0.080136,0.010215,0.028951,0.005466,0.003729,-0.018506,-0.029422,-0.002116,0.001064,-0.00282,-0.021531,0.023051,0.012694,-0.004685,0.000282,-0.000568,-0.000117,-0.006311,0.002365,0.003173,0.007409,-0.003817
    West-Siberia-N,0.105855,-0.060424,0.097486,0.199292,-0.082631,0.045738,-0.041949,-0.04719,-0.03344,-0.09212,0.019487,-0.010641,0.027354,-0.071908,0.025923,0.01664,-0.01356,-0.006588,-0.000377,0.003252,-0.030134,0.010943,0.024095,0.007471,-0.010119
    Ganj-Dareh-N,0.044012,0.06804,-0.15374,0.002369,-0.121869,0.019057,0.017391,-0.003307,-0.083037,-0.0554,-0.000325,-0.004796,0.006145,-0.009496,0.029587,0.058826,-0.008084,0.009882,0.011103,-0.036226,0.0094,-0.02708,-0.011626,-0.037917,0.025746
    Onge,-0.021626,-0.243727,-0.127844,0.090763,0.032006,-0.00753,-0.011281,0.009461,0.053176,0.021504,0.024033,0.000899,-0.003568,0.006468,-0.018865,-0.01485,0.014473,0.001774,-0.00729,0.035142,0.000125,0.001113,-0.02884,-0.000482,0.002275
    (Also added in Dai for Bengalis)
    
    The fits for model-2 are generally terrible because Onge is a poor AASI stand-in but, remarkably, the levels of Onge ancestry are comparable to the levels of Paniya ancestry in the prior model if you take note of how Paniyas can be modeled as about ~80% Onge-like.
    
    Results:
    
    distance%=10.1336
    
             Brahmin
    
    Ganj-Dareh-N 37.2
    Onge 36.8
    Sintashta-MLBA 20.2
    West-Siberia-N 5.8
    
    --
    
    distance%=10.9666
    
             Brahmin-TN
    
    Onge 41.6
    Ganj-Dareh-N 41.4
    Sintashta-MLBA 11.6
    West-Siberia-N 5.4
    
    --
    
    distance%=10.8349
    
             Kshatriya
    
    Onge 40.6
    Ganj-Dareh-N 37.8
    Sintashta-MLBA 14.8
    West-Siberia-N 6.8
    
    --
    
    distance%=11.253
    
             Punjabi
    
    Onge 46.6
    Ganj-Dareh-N 37
    Sintashta-MLBA 10.4
    West-Siberia-N 6
    
    --
    
    distance%=11.9851
    
             Punjabi-Lahore
    
    Onge 48
    Ganj-Dareh-N 37.2
    Sintashta-MLBA 10
    West-Siberia-N 4.8
    
    --
    
    distance%=13.8517
    
             Uttar-Pradesh
    
    Onge 55
    Ganj-Dareh-N 31.8
    Sintashta-MLBA 7.2
    West-Siberia-N 6
    
    --
    
    distance%=11.8812
    
             Bengali
    
    Onge 58.6
    Ganj-Dareh-N 31.6
    West-Siberia-N 7
    Sintashta-MLBA 2.8
    
    --
    
    distance%=11.3707
    
             Bengali-Bangladesh
    
    Onge 58.8
    Ganj-Dareh-N 31.2
    West-Siberia-N 6.6
    Sintashta-MLBA 3.4
    
    --
    
    distance%=7.516
    
             Sindhi
    
    Ganj-Dareh-N 48.6
    Onge 26
    Sintashta-MLBA 22.2
    West-Siberia-N 3.2
    
    --
    
    distance%=5.8716
    
             Burusho
    
    Ganj-Dareh-N 38.8
    Onge 30.6
    Sintashta-MLBA 20.4
    West-Siberia-N 10.2
    Almost every group I ran seems anything from 30-50% AASI. Whatever way it all went down, it's impressive to me that the Paleolithic inhabitants of the subcontinent still contribute this much to modern groups despite so many, as much as mzp1 would like to downplay or deny them, incursions from the outside.

    (all runs were done with Nmonte3 and pen=0)
    Ancestry DNA

    Model 1


    [1] "distance%=3.2649 / distance=0.032649"

    Jortita_scaled
    Paniya 51.2
    Ganj_Dareh_N 17.75
    Dai 14.4
    Sintashta_MLBA 12.2
    West_Siberia_N 4.45

    Model 2

    [1] "distance%=8.0982 / distance=0.080982"


    Jortita_scaled
    Onge:ONG-1 57.75
    Ganj_Dareh_N 27.2
    Sintashta_MLBA 7.8
    West_Siberia_N 7.25

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  7. #2564
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    Quote Originally Posted by jortita View Post
    Ancestry DNA
    Quite odd that model-2 didn't pick-up on your Dai-related ancestry. You added them into both models, yes? But still pretty cool... So you seem perhaps 40% AASI, 25-30% Iran-Neolithic, 10-15% Steppe, about 5-10% West-Siberia and 10-15% Dai-related. Pretty cool and thank you so much for sharing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    I'm gonna give you an estimate: 30-60, 000 migrants is all that is necessary. On the same order as the number of people that went to Britain.

    Are you happy now?

    Don't be stupid, the reason why you asked that question is because you think that postulating the "millions and millions" figure will cause people to change their mind. And I have just shown that estimate is completely inapplicable to the period we are talking about.

    I presented this evidence because there have been scientific studies. I don't think you can find out the 'population of the Andronovo/Sintashta' because unlike agriculturalists, we can't use the size of permanent settlements to guess their population size. But we can use other sources of evidence to try to get at the amount of population the Steppes can support on a pastoral subsistence strategy.

    During the Seljuk invasion of Byzantine Greece, large areas were depopulated and turned to pastoral grassland and the landscape of Eastern Anatolia was dotted with large numbers of camps that were thousands to tens of thousands strong just a few seasons after the migration. So 60 000 is no problem for pastoralists. Now the question is, what was the native population? Since Possehl gives "several million" and Meadows also "several million" for the mature Harrappan, and there is at least an order of magnitude decrease in number of sites going into the post-Harrappan phase, there are perhaps several hundreds of thousands of locals. Now we get a ratio that is, if anything, less lopsided than that of the Anglo Saxon migration to Britain.

    So there is no problem at all reconciling the numbers. It can be done, with some reasonable assumptions. How much this is supported by, or even can be supported by actual archaeological estimates is another matter.

    And if you are gonna cling on to the point that "MLBA steppe is less in Swat than in ppl today!!!" among a people who did practise cremation alongside burial (its literally mentioned in the archaeological context in the supplementary information that cremation and inhumation were practiced often in the same locality at those sites in Swat), and among a people who were open to further gene flow from the Steppe (Butkara 38% Steppe MLBA, not Scythian! Steppe MLBA increases), you are just clutching at straws.

    It is moronic to suggest that ~60000 migrated and left a tiny trace of 20% steppe ancestry at their point of ingress. When it should be reverberating with the signature for times to come.

    Not that I am implying you are one, infact I find you quite ok and reasonable actually.

    Also I was simply stating the estimated population size of dispersed IVC who have to be tacked on with steppe by incoming migrants, it was not to intimidate you or anything. Only wanted to understand under what kind of model and process that can happen.

    Either ways its good we had this conversation, helped me to know what level of questions to ask you henceforth based on your level of understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Quite odd that model-2 didn't pick-up on your Dai-related ancestry. You added them into both models, yes? But still pretty cool... So you seem perhaps 40% AASI, 25-30% Iran-Neolithic, 10-15% Steppe, about 5-10% West-Siberia and 10-15% Dai-related. Pretty cool and thank you so much for sharing.
    It might be because Onge are probably not representative of AASI as argued by Kurd and others and seem to have considerable affinity with East Asian populations including Dai. I think I am probably around 25-30% Dai related, which is probably absorbed into Paniya and Onge

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    You make some valid points but reality is there are groups today with elevated Steppe ancestry . The vector for bringing it seems complicated but it can be explained by a combination of factors, demic diffusions, different waves of migration, plague , climate change. As per the paper, some composite Steppe/Zagrosian IVC periphery population ie "ANI" mixed with the ASI ( Irula) like groups , the "ANI" seems to vary , some initial Indo Aryan groups could have been much more Steppe shifted, while others similar to those in Swat. We know groups like Gujjars/Gojarwals, perhaps and others diffused from the Hindu Kush into the plains, and a likely case seems to be the case for Jats, so its very possible there were diffusions of later Indo Aryan groups in the Iron Age from the Khyber.
    Agree with you on this about the later diffusion incursions in late Iron Age to Historic period, for which there is archaeological and historic support as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    I think the best explanation for this is that the Swat Valley non-R1a samples were not Vedic Aryans

    Yes anything is possible.

    But if that is true then it falsifies the paper, which assumes SPGT was the creation of Indus Periphery like and Steppe MLBA East Like populations which created the IndoAryan signature and before that creation, SPGT was InPe and MLBA East was IIR. Thats the basis of the whole paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homosapien View Post
    Yes anything is possible.

    But if that is true then it falsifies the paper, which assumes SPGT was the creation of Indus Periphery like and Steppe MLBA East Like populations which created the IndoAryan signature and before that creation, SPGT was InPe and MLBA East was IIR. Thats the basis of the whole paper.
    I think a good argument would be that iron age swat was Indo-Aryan speaking but not 'Vedic Indo-Aryan'. Probably an obscure tribe that didn't contribute much genetically to later indo-aryan populations. Despite continuity with the IVC, archaeologically several new cultural traits appear - the increased presence of the horse, cremations etc. in swat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishvamitra View Post
    I think a good argument would be that iron age swat was Indo-Aryan speaking but not 'Vedic Indo-Aryan'. Probably an obscure tribe that didn't contribute much genetically to later indo-aryan populations. Despite continuity with the IVC, archaeologically several new cultural traits appear - the increased presence of the horse, cremations etc. in swat.
    In all honesty I think they should list what you said so their paper remains robust as such.

    So in their future research they can find out proximal populations with even perfect fit for "Vedic Indo Aryans" like they did for just "Indo Aryans", because majority of the Indian population comes under the grouping of "Vedic Indo Aryans".

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