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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

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    Horses and domesticated animals migrate along with the migrating people, but also through trade. But was there a chance horses migrated independently without humans? They are herd animals, after all, and could travel across vast distances, especially across the friendly terrain of the Eurasian steppe. They could be recaptured and redomesticated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Thats not the Steppe, thats continental Europe and not all modern horses come from the Steppe , Arabian horse breeds are indigenous.
    It’s funny how that works huh. He posts a picture of Europe and calls it the steppe. Not exactly a blatant lie because part of the steppe is in eastern Europe but certainly biasing the discussion. They’re just trying so hard to make everything have a European origin. I can’t even imagine the level of bias that must have existed back in the day.

    As for this discovery we can’t really have a decent opinion until we at least get carbon dates. But it certainly looks Harappan to me - especially the horned figures on the coffin and the motifs on the combs etc.

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     pegasus (06-08-2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by thorin View Post
    It’s funny how that works huh. He posts a picture of Europe and calls it the steppe. Not exactly a blatant lie because part of the steppe is in eastern Europe but certainly biasing the discussion. They’re just trying so hard to make everything have a European origin. I can’t even imagine the level of bias that must have existed back in the day.
    ...
    The picture is to show the correlations.
    He has marked the ancient horse and human DNA locations.

    Of course the expansion could have been from Europe or from somewhere to its east in Asia. West Eurasian steppe is the preferable term IMO unless we have better resolution.

    I'm/was partial to Asia on the horse issue (but not for R1a-M417).
    But even on the horse a recent paper indicated that while the horse may have been first domesticated among the Botai, the relevant Bronze age expansion was not from there.
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/...se-family-tree
    "disproves the current theory: that modern horses arose more than 5000 years ago in Kazakhstan. Instead, the new work suggests that modern-day domestic horses come from an as-yet-undiscovered stock ...
    The tree “was really quite a shock,” ...
    For one, Przewalski’s horses were in the same part of the tree as the Botai horses ...
    all the other horses were on a separate branch of the tree ...
    Outram suspects that in addition to the Botai horses east of the Ural Mountains, there may have been domesticated horses to the west that won out thanks to migrations..."

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     bmoney (06-09-2018)

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    Also tangentially relevant to the above horse/human issue, is this recent post by rozenfeld:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post411106
    "ancient Y. pestis genomes from individuals associated with the Late Bronze Age period (~3800 BP) in the Samara region of modern-day Russia. We show clear distinctions between our new strains and the LNBA lineage, and suggest that the full ability for flea-mediated transmission causing bubonic plague evolved more than 1000 years earlier than previously suggested."
    "Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial assignment revealed the individual carrying R1a1a1b and U2e2a haplogroups, respectively"
    "close genetic affinity to ancient populations from EBA Europe and the MLBA steppe, which are genetically distinct from EBA populations from the Central Asian steppe, as they encompass early European farmer-related ancestry as part of their genetic composition (Fig. 1c). Examples of such groups include the European “Corded Ware”-associated populations, the “Andronovo” from the Altai region and the Samara-region “Srubnaya” culture with which RT5 has been archaeologically associated."

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     bmoney (06-09-2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by thorin View Post
    It’s funny how that works huh. He posts a picture of Europe and calls it the steppe. Not exactly a blatant lie because part of the steppe is in eastern Europe but certainly biasing the discussion. They’re just trying so hard to make everything have a European origin. I can’t even imagine the level of bias that must have existed back in the day.
    The Pontic-Caspian steppe is in Eastern Europe, and this is what my map shows.

    The Kazakh steppe is in Central Asia, but it's not relevant to the discussion, because it was home to the Botai people who kept a different breed of horse.

    So what should I have posted a map of? Europe or Central Asia? And if Central Asia, how would I be able to highlight the earliest instances of Y-HT-1, Y-HT4, R1a-M417 and R1b-M269?

    Can you answer my question please? I'd like to grasp your logic here, if there is one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The paper deals with reduced diversity of stallions in Europe. If you are suggesting Arabians are introduced by Mittani or Hittites, you are misguided. Arabian horse remains have been found in Southern Arabia and dated before those ones domesticated on the Botai, I don't think Steppe nomads invaded Haudramaut unfortunately. They likely were not domesticated in Arabia, but point is you have modern breeds existing and contemporary with those on the Steppe. There is 45 000 years between the split between horses and the Przewalski horses , yet even Prezewalski horses show HT-2. So if anything this paper raises more questions than answering them.
    You seem to be confused.

    Modern Arabian horses are very closely related to other modern domesticated horse breeds, so the idea that they totally descend from ancient Arabian horses is false, because that would mean that all modern horse breeds are of Middle Eastern origin.

    But they're not. They come from Eastern Europe, and they suffered the same Y-DNA bottleneck dating to the Scythian period on the Eurasian steppe. Almost all Scythian horses belong to Y-HT-1.

    Why is it surprising that Asian horses descent from Scythian horses?

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     parasar (06-09-2018)

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    Pegasus, you need to think twice before you get into these debates, because what's the point? Or are you just arguing for the sake of argument?

    Arabian horses fall under Domestic-B in this phylogeny. But the more basal Duk2 is an ancient horse from Bronze Age Hungary, and his ancestors didn't come from Arabia, I can assure you of that. Sintashta horses are in the Domestic-Ancient clade.

    How did you even come up with the idea that modern Arabian horses descend from ancient southern Arabian horses? Is this based on ancient DNA, or DNA of any type?



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     Ryukendo (08-21-2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by thorin View Post
    It’s funny how that works huh. He posts a picture of Europe and calls it the steppe. Not exactly a blatant lie because part of the steppe is in eastern Europe but certainly biasing the discussion. They’re just trying so hard to make everything have a European origin. I can’t even imagine the level of bias that must have existed back in the day.

    As for this discovery we can’t really have a decent opinion until we at least get carbon dates. But it certainly looks Harappan to me - especially the horned figures on the coffin and the motifs on the combs etc.
    This is the steppe. Most of Northern Asia is covered, and a lot of Europe is not

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasi...teppe_belt.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    This is the steppe. Most of Northern Asia is covered, and a lot of Europe is not

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasi...teppe_belt.jpg
    But only the western part of the Eurasian steppe is important in this context, because that's where the people and horses come from that expanded both west and east during the Bronze Age.

    This western part of the Eurasian steppe is called the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

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     bmoney (06-10-2018)

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    There are some significant differences in karyotype between the robust Przewalski’s horses that descend from Botai horses (or share common ancestor) and the domesticated horse lineage.

    Probably leads to some strong hybrid incompatibility (not mule level but significant) and selection either for an average Botai-like / domesticated-horse-ancestor-like genetic structure, with perhaps some introgression of useful variants, rather than human selection of mixed Botai-domesticated for hybrid vigour.

    If there were some different groups of horses around in West Eurasia with the same karyotype, there could have been more extensive hybridization between them. They will need to go beyond their approx 2000 BCE limit of horses in the West Eurasian zone (from this study) to sort this out.

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     Ryukendo (08-21-2018)

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