Waves of migration into South Asia

[SteppeBrother]

1. My MTA & Harappa results are obviously common with Punjabi populations. Probably nearly all of us. I never said it was just mine here. It stayed with us due to endogamy;
2. The Euro results are due to Steppe Migrations a long time ago and survived due to said endogamy;
3. It’s obvious that Sikh Jatts/Tharkhans would have had some Hindu or Muslim ancestors. Ottoman and Ottoman Mongol comes up more than once for my MTA as well as 1450 AD Iran, and as @MonkyDLuffy says, anyone familiar with Punjabi history would know this. MyHeritage has me as 6.5% West Asian (which includes Turkey, Iran and Iraq) and it could be due to movement of people in or out of Punjab.
3. Just to clarify: I am agnostic and don’t follow any religion so have no issue with saying I descended partly from Muslims, Hindus, Flying Speghetti Monster

[Lollybolly]

How are u scoring 65% West Asia in MyHeritage that doesn't make much sense based on your HW results.

[laltota]

He's half Tarkhan half Jatt. And anyone who is familiar with Panjab's history, knows there were some muslim Groups that did convert to Sikhism as well as there were muslims in Sikh army. Sikhs also conquered as far as khyber, so them bringing local wives from there is another possibility.

@rixdna, the steppe is certainly old, same source as other Punjabi biradaris. It's not recent.

All sorts of things are possible and sometimes these unusual things happened on a rare basis, but there is nothing I have ever read, or heard any Sikh historian say on TV, suggesting Sikhs brought any women from Khyber area on any scale that could genetically affect individual Sikh villagers today in any measurable way. Actually I have never come across anything suggesting Sikhs brought any women from Khyber area in that period.

On that basis I would think RixDNA is no different to most of the Jatts and Tarkhans whose results we have seen so far, and it is unlikely he has any unusual ancestry from 1500 Ottomans, Afghans etc - other than a very tiny..tiny… chance of something rare and unusual in his ancestry which could apply to any person I suppose.

[laltota]

[B]I just spent ages writing a reply and lost it as the system logged me out![/B]

MTA...
Basically I get direct DNA sharing with ancient Scythian DNA remains, multiple ones.
I also get a lot of Sarmatian DNA matches directly and to the population in general and Sarmatians may have been Celtic Scythians according to Strabo.

I also get a lot of Celtic tribe Gaul matches popping up.
My matches with possible Celtic links:
2900 BC - Urals Yamnaya Culture (directly sharing some identical DNA)
2500 BC - Corded Ware Germany
2200 BC - Bell Beaker Salisbury
410 AD - Ostrogoth Frankish Mix (Sarmations; Gauls; Franks)
450 AD - Gepid / Goth (Gaul)
550 AD - Visigoth Mixed Slav Girona (Gaul; Thuringii; Scythians)

Scythians matches:
600 BC - Scythian Ukraine
300 BC- Scythian Russia (directly sharing some identical DNA)
300 BC - Scythian Moldova
235 BC - Scythian Ukraine

I'm sure I've missed some out, because there's loads of matches all over the place.
If anyone is interested in the Sarmatians; Alans; Hellenic and other matches I get, I will add details it later.

Thanks.

If your reply takes long time to write, then better to write it first in another editor and copy and paste for reply.

[MonkeyDLuffy]

All sorts of things are possible and sometimes these unusual things happened on a rare basis, but there is nothing I have ever read, or heard any Sikh historian say on TV, suggesting Sikhs brought any women from Khyber area on any scale that could genetically affect individual Sikh villagers today in any measurable way. Actually I have never come across anything suggesting Sikhs brought any women from Khyber area in that period.

On that basis I would think RixDNA is no different to most of the Jatts and Tarkhans whose results we have seen so far, and it is unlikely he has any unusual ancestry from 1500 Ottomans, Afghans etc - other than a very tiny..tiny… chance of something rare and unusual in his ancestry which could apply to any person I suppose.

I suggested that as a "possibility", because some Sikh generals did have muslim wives. But that mix should be diluted so much, it's probably untraceable. Since he is going deep in dna matches, it can show up there. We'd pike to believe that Sikh army was merciful, since every religion is shown good in their own books. But they were soldiers, and there is all kind of shady stuff happens during war. This is in context to Punjab's history, not related to rix ancestry.

@rixdna: yours, along with all us Punjabis ancestors were Hindus who believed in Punjabi cosmology before accepting Sikhism or Islam. I still doubt you having any Christian ancestor. But if you strongly believe that, you can dig deep in your family records by visiting your maternal and paternal village. If it happened, it has to be within past 3-4 generations because of how recent it is in Punjab. Based on your results, and the communities that accepted christianity in Punjab, you show no trace of any such ancestor or mix. You're probably second generation British-Punjabi I take. I'll tell you something as a fresh of the boat Canadian, Christianity and Christians are looked down a lot in Punjab. It is used sometimes as a term for people of untouchable background since they were the ones who accepted it. If someone from that community was married into your family in past 3 generations, you'll definitely know.

[SteppeBrother]

How are u scoring 65% West Asia in MyHeritage that doesn't make much sense based on your HW results.

Sorry! Typo. 6.5% not 65%.

[Lollybolly]

MyHeritage has me at 18% West Asian and 2% Central Asian, yet I don't have any foreign ancestry. Point is MyHeritage is garbage at pinpointing ancestry.

[SteppeBrother]

@rixdna: yours, along with all us Punjabis ancestors were Hindus who believed in Punjabi cosmology before accepting Sikhism or Islam. I still doubt you having any Christian ancestor. But if you strongly believe that, you can dig deep in your family records by visiting your maternal and paternal village. If it happened, it has to be within past 3-4 generations because of how recent it is in Punjab. Based on your results, and the communities that accepted christianity in Punjab, you show no trace of any such ancestor or mix. You're probably second generation British-Punjabi I take. I'll tell you something as a fresh of the boat Canadian, Christianity and Christians are looked down a lot in Punjab. It is used sometimes as a term for people of untouchable background since they were the ones who accepted it. If someone from that community was married into your family in past 3 generations, you'll definitely know.

You seem to be confused with my other post MONTHS ago where I didn't know much about Steppe Migration and asked you if I had any recent Celtic in me, so the Christianity thing might come from your thinking about that. But...I now know I don't have any recent Christian or Muslim ancestry And I've said this before.

This whole thing on this thread, started by me talking about MTA Ancient Deep Dive Matches. Not something that may have happened during partition or British Empire etc. The Muslim thing is not far fetched if it's 1200-1550AD where I have matches with remains from Middle East crusades; Medieval Iran; and Ottoman Turks and Ottoman Mongols. These matches (might) NOT be just down to shared Steppe ancestry.

But if you all think that Punjabi Sikhs and Punjabi Hindus NEVER had any Muslim; Eastern Othordox Christian; Buddisht ancestors between 0AD and 1700AD, then I think you're just probably talking through your own bias, based on religions or politics. Look at it factually. We all know the influence of the Moguls; Persions; and before that, waves of Scythians had. I don't think there is much or any Hellenic (even though I and probably many of you too, get an identical segment with Hellenic Seleucid Anatolia 165 BC Archeological remains MA2198).

But according a lot of Indians/you: We were all Hindus for the last 4000 years. And for those that can admit to believing in reason (that the Euro matches come from Steppe Ancestry 4000 years ago, thus it is true there was a Steppe Migration to India) you suggest that all the identical segment matches we get with anything that is not Sikh or Hindu, is from 4000+ya Steppe Ancestry. Yes, most of it probably is, but we all know that Sikhism is recent and maybe before that we may have had ancestors who were Persian; Sarmatian; Alan; Cimmerian; Scythian. Or..that's so impossible? The reasons we get 40, 50, 60 genetic difference to tribes on MTA, is that we are mixed up and not just made up of one or two ancient tribe genetic streams, right?

Anway, I just replied to state that I DONT THINK I HAVE ANY RECENT CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM ANCESTRY. I was just talking about ANCIENT Deep Dive results, most maybe due to Steppe ancestry, but not totally impossible that we have some non 4000+ Steppe DNA, which is also non-Hindu, given the complex history of North-West Punjab due to geographic location empires from 0AD to around 1700AD.

[MonkeyDLuffy]

You seem to be confused with my other post MONTHS ago where I didn't know much about Steppe Migration and asked you if I had any recent Celtic in me, so the Christianity thing might come from your thinking about that. But...I now know I don't have any recent Christian or Muslim ancestry And I've said this before.

This whole thing on this thread, started by me talking about MTA Ancient Deep Dive Matches. Not something that may have happened during partition or British Empire etc. The Muslim thing is not far fetched if it's 1200-1550AD where I have matches with remains from Middle East crusades; Medieval Iran; and Ottoman Turks and Ottoman Mongols. These matches (might) NOT be just down to shared Steppe ancestry.

But if you all think that Punjabi Sikhs and Punjabi Hindus NEVER had any Muslim; Eastern Othordox Christian; Buddisht ancestors between 0AD and 1700AD, then I think you're just probably talking through your own bias, based on religions or politics. Look at it factually. We all know the influence of the Moguls; Persions; and before that, waves of Scythians had. I don't think there is much or any Hellenic (even though I and probably many of you too, get an identical segment with Hellenic Seleucid Anatolia 165 BC Archeological remains MA2198).

But according a lot of Indians/you: We were all Hindus for the last 4000 years. And for those that can admit to believing in reason (that the Euro matches come from Steppe Ancestry 4000 years ago, thus it is true there was a Steppe Migration to India) you suggest that all the identical segment matches we get with anything that is not Sikh or Hindu, is from 4000+ya Steppe Ancestry. Yes, most of it probably is, but we all know that Sikhism is recent and maybe before that we may have had ancestors who were Persian; Sarmatian; Alan; Cimmerian; Scythian. Or..that's so impossible? The reasons we get 40, 50, 60 genetic difference to tribes on MTA, is that we are mixed up and not just made up of one or two ancient tribe genetic streams, right?

Anway, I just replied to state that I DONT THINK I HAVE ANY RECENT CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM ANCESTRY. I was just talking about ANCIENT Deep Dive results, most maybe due to Steppe ancestry, but not totally impossible that we have some non 4000+ Steppe DNA, which is also non-Hindu, given the complex history of North-West Punjab due to geographic location empires from 0AD to around 1700AD.

Some nice strawmans there brother. Never claimed we were Hindus for 4000 years since the term did not exist that long ago. Specifically said believers in Punjabi cosmology which is mix of Hindu, Muslim pirs and pagan beliefs. Steppe has arrived in multiple waves, rather than one shot.

No christian empire has reached Punjab or Interior south Asia via middle east, Period. There are no records, samples of such invasion. If there was such invasion, you'd see glorified records of it in European history. If it was the case, you'd see a lot of recent near eastern, european subclades of paternal haplogroups in local people. For sure we had multiple invasions, none was strong enough to leave large scale genetic impact, from huge amount of samples we've so far. You've made some bold claims about invasions, please post some links of records and studies that confirm such mixing events. I'm mostly interested on ottoman and christian crusaders. Please help me get rid of my bias.

Also to clarify, empires like scythians were pagans.

Since you claimed steppe DNA is non Hindu, sorry to burst your bubble but Rors, gangetic Jats and Nepali Brahmins are one of the highest Steppe groups of South Asia. They all are Hindus. Religion does not dictate what your admixture is.

If you're aware of my post history on this site, you'd know I'm not fond of Hinduism, but history is history, and we cannot change it.

[Censored]

Hold on, are you really using MTA as a reference for ancestry? That is based on autosomal similarity not DNA matches. I tried it and got Scythian at a massive distance because those are the only ancient samples they have with any ENA. Same would apply to the ottoman result.

Also almost all south Asians can be modeled perfectly well without the use of Turkic or Persic ancients