Page 368 of 442 FirstFirst ... 268318358366367368369370378418 ... LastLast
Results 3,671 to 3,680 of 4411

Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #3671
    Registered Users
    Posts
    50
    Ethnicity
    Indo-European
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z93

    England United Kingdom India Punjab Ukraine Russian Federation
    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Some nice strawmans there brother. Never claimed we were Hindus for 4000 years since the term did not exist that long ago. Specifically said believers in Punjabi cosmology which is mix of Hindu, Muslim pirs and pagan beliefs. Steppe has arrived in multiple waves, rather than one shot.

    No christian empire has reached Punjab or Interior south Asia via middle east, Period. There are no records, samples of such invasion. If there was such invasion, you'd see glorified records of it in European history. If it was the case, you'd see a lot of recent near eastern, european subclades of paternal haplogroups in local people. For sure we had multiple invasions, none was strong enough to leave large scale genetic impact, from huge amount of samples we've so far. You've made some bold claims about invasions, please post some links of records and studies that confirm such mixing events. I'm mostly interested on ottoman and christian crusaders. Please help me get rid of my bias.

    Also to clarify, empires like scythians were pagans.

    Since you claimed steppe DNA is non Hindu, sorry to burst your bubble but Rors, gangetic Jats and Nepali Brahmins are one of the highest Steppe groups of South Asia. They all are Hindus. Religion does not dictate what your admixture is.

    If you're aware of my post history on this site, you'd know I'm not fond of Hinduism, but history is history, and we cannot change it.
    I wasn't directing to you about claiming Hindus for 4000 years, but rather the interior nationalists which we discussed about. Not your biases dude.

    I didn't mean any ancient Christian Empire reached Punjab, but rather that Eastern Othodox Russian or Greek influence, but I see your point about mentioning Empires, as an Empire is prob the only way to make a lasting effect, not if a dozen or so popped East to Punjab from Caucuses.
    Yeah, I know Scythians were pagans, I had thought Samartians and Alans might have been Christians as I saw the 200AD mark next to those matches and assumed they might have been early Christians but that's not the case, but 1) I see they were pagan now; 2) Do we know if our matches are from them or from common Steppe? 3) if it's common Steppe then even if any were

    Also, I know Steppe descendants are Hindu. I never said they weren't? Now that's strawman my friend. (If you can quote me, then I'll humbly accept my mistake). I must have meant that our c. 2200 BC Steppe ancestors wouldn't have been Hindu until they reached South Asia from the Pontic Steppe, obviously. And then, of course they would have become. I also forget how old Hinduism is. So naturally follows many would have been Hindu well before Islam and Christianty right?

    Man, believe me, I know DNA doesn't dictate where your admixture is. Again strawman unless you can show me where I am saying that religion dictates DNA. I've tried to make it clear that I don't care about religion, but about the archeological digs and data, but that others (not you!) have resisted acknowledging research due to politics or religious matters, and we talked about this in PM so I don't understand why you misunderstood that.

    You also seem to pick on things and extrapolate meanings that I never meant. Mentioning the crusader or ottoman thing from matches on MTA, was only because they are matches and who's to say some of them weren't just mercenaries looking for adventure and went that bit further to travel to Punjab. Again, not invasions. Never said that Crusaders or Ottomans invaded Punjab lol!

    But tell me this, because I'm really not clear in my mind where you're coming from and a lot of people on this: Are you all saying that MTA etc is just giving us matches based on common Steppe ancestry? The many matches, including the Deep Dive ones, are really just finding shared ancestry from way back to the Pontic Steppe rather than us having partly descending from that 450AD or 1450AD ancient person?

  2. #3672
    Registered Users
    Posts
    50
    Ethnicity
    Indo-European
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z93

    England United Kingdom India Punjab Ukraine Russian Federation
    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    That is based on autosomal similarity not DNA matches.
    It's not just a population similarity tool. That is useless. That is what I started saying....that if you have mixed ethnicity historically (Baloch; N.E Euro etc) then you'll not get a close match to any single population.
    Last edited by SteppeBrother; 07-28-2019 at 07:50 PM.

  3. #3673
    Registered Users
    Posts
    50
    Ethnicity
    Indo-European
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z93

    England United Kingdom India Punjab Ukraine Russian Federation
    Quote Originally Posted by laltota View Post

    On that basis I would think RixDNA is no different to most of the Jatts and Tarkhans whose results we have seen so far, and it is unlikely he has any unusual ancestry from 1500 Ottomans, Afghans etc - other than a very tiny..tiny… chance of something rare and unusual in his ancestry which could apply to any person I suppose.
    I never said I'm different to most Jatts and Tarkhans.

    Once again, is our matches to these individuals the result of shared Steppe ancestry?
    Last edited by SteppeBrother; 07-28-2019 at 07:50 PM.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to SteppeBrother For This Useful Post:

     laltota (07-28-2019)

  5. #3674
    Registered Users
    Posts
    272
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Bengali Brahmin
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-L295
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f

    United States of America Bangladesh India United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by RixDNA View Post
    I wasn't directing to you about claiming Hindus for 4000 years, but rather the interior nationalists which we discussed about. Not your biases dude.

    I didn't mean any ancient Christian Empire reached Punjab, but rather that Eastern Othodox Russian or Greek influence, but I see your point about mentioning Empires, as an Empire is prob the only way to make a lasting effect, not if a dozen or so popped East to Punjab from Caucuses.
    Yeah, I know Scythians were pagans, I had thought Samartians and Alans might have been Christians as I saw the 200AD mark next to those matches and assumed they might have been early Christians but that's not the case, but 1) I see they were pagan now; 2) Do we know if our matches are from them or from common Steppe? 3) if it's common Steppe then even if any were

    Also, I know Steppe descendants are Hindu. I never said they weren't? Now that's strawman my friend. (If you can quote me, then I'll humbly accept my mistake). I must have meant that our c. 2200 BC Steppe ancestors wouldn't have been Hindu until they reached South Asia from the Pontic Steppe, obviously. And then, of course they would have become. I also forget how old Hinduism is. So naturally follows many would have been Hindu well before Islam and Christianty right?

    Man, believe me, I know DNA doesn't dictate where your admixture is. Again strawman unless you can show me where I am saying that religion dictates DNA. I've tried to make it clear that I don't care about religion, but about the archeological digs and data, but that others (not you!) have resisted acknowledging research due to politics or religious matters, and we talked about this in PM so I don't understand why you misunderstood that.

    You also seem to pick on things and extrapolate meanings that I never meant. Mentioning the crusader or ottoman thing from matches on MTA, was only because they are matches and who's to say some of them weren't just mercenaries looking for adventure and went that bit further to travel to Punjab. Again, not invasions. Never said that Crusaders or Ottomans invaded Punjab lol!

    But tell me this, because I'm really not clear in my mind where you're coming from and a lot of people on this: Are you all saying that MTA etc is just giving us matches based on common Steppe ancestry? The many matches, including the Deep Dive ones, are really just finding shared ancestry from way back to the Pontic Steppe rather than us having partly descending from that 450AD or 1450AD ancient person?
    The Vedic Religion (from which Hinduism is heavily derived from) was brought to India by the Steppe populations, so they would have been likely following a form of proto hinduism. Regarding your last sentence, yes it’s detecting archaic similarity. It doesn’t have to necessarily come from shared Steppe. It’s very unlikely you’d be descended from random samples they found, especially ones as recent as the 1400s.
    Last edited by FrostAssassin0701; 07-28-2019 at 07:21 PM.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to FrostAssassin0701 For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (08-05-2019),  MonkeyDLuffy (07-28-2019),  SteppeBrother (07-30-2019)

  7. #3675
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,417
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    England United Kingdom England
    Quote Originally Posted by RixDNA View Post
    What are you saying? I've already said that they match your DNA kits to remains. It's not just a population similarity tool. That is useless. That is what I started saying....that if you have mixed ethnicity historically (Baloch; N.E Euro etc) then you'll not get a close match to any single population.
    The segment aggregate will approximately correspond with the sort of component-defined analyses offered by other services. Suggesting the two are somehow divorced from one another is a categorically false proposition.

    That a Kashmiri will share more segments (and probably more >5cM segments) with a Punjabi than a Georgian, whilst also being closer to them in terms of ADMIXTURE, Fst etc., is fairly intuitive (and a claim which shouldn't need data to justify).

    Quote Originally Posted by RixDNA View Post
    Once again, is our matches to these individuals the result of shared Steppe ancestry?
    In isolation, that's not something you can establish. May be the result of shared ANF-related ancestry.

    Worth pointing out that certain regions in the chromosomes are hyper-conserved, so depending on where the segment is, it might just be deep shared West Eurasian ancestry.

    I don't accept "Nah, MTA [insert any commercial DNA site here] etc is just garbage and making things up"
    The veracity of the outputs from that particular provider can't be interpreted in isolation. A substantive cross-comparison with GEDmatch's segment sharing can be had, for instance.

    You'll also do yourself a service by minimising the combative language. Please cut that out.
    Last edited by DMXX; 07-28-2019 at 07:22 PM. Reason: comments

  8. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     26284729292 (07-28-2019),  aaronbee2010 (08-03-2019),  bmoney (08-05-2019),  Censored (07-28-2019),  FrostAssassin0701 (07-28-2019),  Kulin (07-28-2019),  laltota (07-28-2019),  MonkeyDLuffy (07-28-2019),  poi (07-28-2019),  Reza (07-29-2019),  SteppeBrother (07-28-2019),  vishankar (07-29-2019)

  9. #3676
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    341
    Sex
    Location
    UK
    Ethnicity
    Punjabi (Jatt)
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2b (R-Y136220)
    mtDNA (M)
    M3a1

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    I suggested that as a "possibility", because some Sikh generals did have muslim wives. But that mix should be diluted so much, it's probably untraceable. Since he is going deep in dna matches, it can show up there. We'd pike to believe that Sikh army was merciful, since every religion is shown good in their own books. But they were soldiers, and there is all kind of shady stuff happens during war. This is in context to Punjab's history, not related to rix ancestry.

    @rixdna: yours, along with all us Punjabis ancestors were Hindus who believed in Punjabi cosmology before accepting Sikhism or Islam. I still doubt you having any Christian ancestor. But if you strongly believe that, you can dig deep in your family records by visiting your maternal and paternal village. If it happened, it has to be within past 3-4 generations because of how recent it is in Punjab. Based on your results, and the communities that accepted christianity in Punjab, you show no trace of any such ancestor or mix. You're probably second generation British-Punjabi I take. I'll tell you something as a fresh of the boat Canadian, Christianity and Christians are looked down a lot in Punjab. It is used sometimes as a term for people of untouchable background since they were the ones who accepted it. If someone from that community was married into your family in past 3 generations, you'll definitely know.

    I didn't mean the Sikh army was so merciful in the area mentioned (Khyber). Actions of Sikh army in Khyber area that were not so merciful by todays standards are all written about - going by what I read in past or I was told by others - but there is no mention of women being brought back. This suggests if any women were brought back, it would have been at a very low level carried out by individuals, otherwise it would have been recorded by someone or other.

  10. #3677
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,876

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    ...

    dentifying Murukan’s name in the Indus texts
    If the Harappan language was Dravidian, the Old Tamil literature assumes great importance in the study of the Indus religion. It is the only source granting us glimpses into the culture that prevailed among Dravidianspeakers before their language and traditions became much contaminated with Indo-Aryan languages andtraditions. The principal native deity of the Old Tamil pantheon is a youthful god of war and love, in many respectsresembling the North Indian war-god Skanda and early on explicitly identified with him. This god has various native Dravidian names, butthe most important is
    Muruku

    or
    Murukan,
    which means ‘youth, young man’. Skanda’s Vedic predecessor Rudra is represented as a newbornbaby and called in Sanskrit
    Kumaara,
    ‘young boy, young man’, an exactsynonym of Murukan.Both Vedic and epic myths of Rudra’s or Skanda’s birth mention thePleiades, in Sanskrit
    krttikaah
    , as the mothers or nurses of Rudra orSkanda, whose metronym therefore is
    Kaarttikeya;
    in late Old Tamiland Medieval Tamil texts Murukan is called
    aru-miin kaatalan
    ‘son orbeloved of the Pleiades’. Both Murukan and Rudra-Skanda areconnected with the colour red and the rising sun. One reality behindthe myth of Rudra’s birth seems to be the sun’s heliacal rise in thePleiades, which marked the beginning of the New Year.It seems possible that Murukan and Rudra-Skanda are bothdescended from a Proto-Dravidian deity and that this god is mentionedin the Indus inscriptions. But how to locate his name or names in thetexts if we cannot read the script? The most reliable clue seems to be....



    For all these reasons, I am confident than an opening to the secrets of the Indus script has been achieved: we know that the underlying language was Proto-Dravidian and we know how the script functions. Theconfirmed interpretations and their wider contexts provide a lot of clues for progress, but there are someserious difficulties on the way. One is the schematic shape of many signs, which makes it difficult to recognizetheir pictorial meaning with certainty. Possibilities of proposing likely readings and their effective checking are severely limited by our defective knowledge of Proto-Dravidian vocabulary, compounds and phraseology.

    Other Murugan/Kumar/Skand/Vel notices:

    1. https://www.harappa.com/content/arro...dus_signs.html
    "Turning to the oldest layer of Tamil Sangam literature, We find that muruku/ murukan was a spirit who manifested himself only by possessing his priest (velan) or young maidens."
    "traditional accounts in old Tamil literature tracing the origin of the Velir cheiftains to migration from the Saurashtra region of Gujarat which was at that time part of the Harappan civilization."
    "Outside the Indus valley, the muruku symbol has been found on a seal from Vaisali, Bihar, dating probably from ca. 1100 BCE."

    2. Kouros Velcahanos, Crete with rooster (an Indus area bird)



    3. sapta matrikas - https://www.ancient-origins.net/myth...umber-7-021773
    Chalooks - nursed by the Sapta Matrikas https://books.google.com/books?id=BZCJAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA176

    4. Gupt emperors - Skandgupt, Kumargupt

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (08-05-2019)

  12. #3678
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,876

    Essay review:
    https://www.telegraphindia.com/cultu...ty/cid/1696499
    "Michael Witzel brings together linguistic, textual, archaeological, genetic and mythological data to indicate a western Central Asian origin of the Indo-European speakers near the Urals with subsequent migration via the Inner Asian Mountain belt and Bactria into India, a process accompanied by acculturation with previous populations, their languages and cultures. The presence of Indo-Aryan loan words of a form more archaic than RigVedic Sanskrit in a Mitanni document of circa 1400 BCE proves that the Rig Veda cannot be older than that. The similarity of Vedic mythology, religion, rituals and material culture with other branches of Indo-European speakers and their marked differences with those of the Harappans are also noted. Recent researches in genetics also indicate post-Harappan Indo-European migration in the middle of the second millennium BCE.

    Razib Khan states that all South Asians derive their ancestry from two groups: Ancestral North Indians and Ancestral South Indians. While the origin of the ASI is rooted in South Asia, ANI share a particular Y-chromosomal lineage (passed on from father to son) known as R1a1 (expanded from a small ancestral group of about 4,000 years back) with various groups settled between West Asia and East Central Europe. A significant influx of mobile male pastoralists from the Central Asian steppes had probably brought R1a1 to the Indian subcontinent. Centuries of caste-based endogamy assured that this component is still particularly prominent among North Indian Brahmins and quite rare in South India. While this suggests the arrival of Central Asian pastoralist bands in South Asia after circa 2000 BCE, the absence of R1a1 in the Harappan skeletons may indicate their ‘non-Aryan’ character.

    Therefore, a 4,500-year old male skeleton of the Harappan site of Rakhigarhi, without the R1a1 and genetically closest to the South Indian tribal populations, solidifies the idea of the Harappan civilization predating the ‘Aryan’ migration, and possibly strengthens the association between the Harappan people and the Dravidian speakers."

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (08-14-2019),  prashantvaidwan (08-13-2019)

  14. #3679
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    4,660
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L657 >BY160158
    mtDNA (M)
    M30g
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L657 >Y6
    mtDNA (P)
    U2C1

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Essay review:
    https://www.telegraphindia.com/cultu...ty/cid/1696499
    "Michael Witzel brings together linguistic, textual, archaeological, genetic and mythological data to indicate a western Central Asian origin of the Indo-European speakers near the Urals with subsequent migration via the Inner Asian Mountain belt and Bactria into India, a process accompanied by acculturation with previous populations, their languages and cultures. The presence of Indo-Aryan loan words of a form more archaic than RigVedic Sanskrit in a Mitanni document of circa 1400 BCE proves that the Rig Veda cannot be older than that. The similarity of Vedic mythology, religion, rituals and material culture with other branches of Indo-European speakers and their marked differences with those of the Harappans are also noted. Recent researches in genetics also indicate post-Harappan Indo-European migration in the middle of the second millennium BCE.

    Razib Khan states that all South Asians derive their ancestry from two groups: Ancestral North Indians and Ancestral South Indians. While the origin of the ASI is rooted in South Asia, ANI share a particular Y-chromosomal lineage (passed on from father to son) known as R1a1 (expanded from a small ancestral group of about 4,000 years back) with various groups settled between West Asia and East Central Europe. A significant influx of mobile male pastoralists from the Central Asian steppes had probably brought R1a1 to the Indian subcontinent. Centuries of caste-based endogamy assured that this component is still particularly prominent among North Indian Brahmins and quite rare in South India. While this suggests the arrival of Central Asian pastoralist bands in South Asia after circa 2000 BCE, the absence of R1a1 in the Harappan skeletons may indicate their ‘non-Aryan’ character.

    Therefore, a 4,500-year old male skeleton of the Harappan site of Rakhigarhi, without the R1a1 and genetically closest to the South Indian tribal populations, solidifies the idea of the Harappan civilization predating the ‘Aryan’ migration, and possibly strengthens the association between the Harappan people and the Dravidian speakers."
    Are they talking about this male skeleton? I assume they were not successful in sequencing other skeletons?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46806084


    They were buried in a half-a-metre-deep sand pit. The man was around 35 years old at the time of his death, while the woman was around 25. Both were reasonably tall - he was 5.8ft (1.77m) and she, 5.6ft. They were both possibly "quite healthy" when they died - tests didn't find any lesions or lines on the bones or any "abnormal thickness" of skull bones, which could hint at injuries or diseases such as brain fever.
    They were a tall couple for that time. The female in particular must have been an absolute giant in those days (unless IVC folks were taller in general).
    Last edited by poi; 08-13-2019 at 07:39 PM.

  15. #3680
    Registered Users
    Posts
    944
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Are they talking about this male skeleton? I assume they were not successful in sequencing other skeletons?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46806084




    They were a tall couple for that time. The female in particular must have been an absolute giant in those days (unless IVC folks were taller in general).
    There are several skeletons found at Lothal that stick out(height 6-6'2) from those of the mainstream farmer type folk(height around 5'7), I think they linked them to Mesolithic Gangetic people.

    Mesolithic Gangetic HGs were among the tallest people in the world(at least eurasia) at their time based on the measurements(which can often go wrong due to reasons I don't quite understand)







    All this was mentioned by someone else on Anthrogenica (maybe parasar himself), but I am unable to locate the post. I somehow remember it as being you who posted this but I doubt it now.

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to client For This Useful Post:

     FrostAssassin0701 (08-13-2019),  Kulin (08-13-2019)

Page 368 of 442 FirstFirst ... 268318358366367368369370378418 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-21-2020, 09:38 AM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 11-16-2018, 09:16 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-17-2017, 04:01 AM
  4. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-26-2013, 08:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •