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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

  1. #841
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    ...
    Plus the Atharvan (composed by Bhrgus & Angirasas, and initially not a Ved) is considered to have parts older than the Rg Ved.
    ...
    Still not a Ved for the Nambuthiris.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=d7pH9WSbYzMC&pg=PA164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    BMAC won't resemble Kalash much at all.
    Then which ancient pop resembles the Kalash?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Immchr View Post
    Incidentally, southern Iranians are also the people geographically and genetically closest to South Asians. This region was also home to the Helmand & the Hari Rud (Jiroft) civilizations which were closely linked to the Indus civilization and to Baluchistan in particular.

    Just a co-incidence or the high R1a in Southern Iranians is linked to this fact ?
    Don't know if this is related to the IVC but the Vedic Saraswati river has been linked to the Helmand
    Last edited by bmoney; 11-20-2017 at 10:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Here's a hint.

    You do realise that haplogroup R1a is not present in large frequencies in the Kalash

    Or are you saying the BMAC was R1a? If so can you provide the source

    We're not all experts here.. I only started looking into anthro a month ago - break things down a bit and ask for clarification if you do not understand someones position, no need to be arrogant

    I only say BMAC because haplogroup L is meant to originate in South Asia from the Pamir Knot region of Tajikistan - in the vicinity of the BMAC

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

    The Pamir Knot region—from where the MRCA of haplogroup L emerged—is also the home of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC), in a site called Gonur that represents a Bronze Age culture known as the Oxus civilization (Sarianidi, 2007).

    Other than that, this study below supports Parasars assertion that the Indo-Aryan languages were brought by a pre-R1a population close to the Kalash, as Hap L and H are not found in significant proportions in R1a populations outside South Asia or found in significant levels in South Asian Brahmins - who represent Indo-Aryan culture the most

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929715001378

    The Kalash represent a unique branch in the South Asian population tree and appear to be the earliest population to split from the ancestral Pakistani and Indian populations, indicating a complex scenario for population origins in the sub-continent rather than just the ancestral northern and southern Indian components identified previously.35 These Indo-European speakers were possibly the first migrants to arrive in the Indian sub-continent from northern or western Asia. This is supported by the higher level of shared genetic drift between the Kalash and the Paleolithic Siberian hunter-gatherer skeleton (MA-1) than between MA-1 and the other South Asian populations.

    "We observed that the Kalash share a substantial proportion of drift with a Paleolithic ancient Siberian hunter-gatherer, who has been suggested to represent a third northern Eurasian genetic ancestry component for present-day Europeans.36,37 This is also supported by the shared drift observed between the Kalash and the Yamnaya, an ancient (2,000–1,800 BCE) Neolithic pastoralist culture that lived in the lower Volga and Don steppe lands of Russia and also shared ancestry with MA-1.36,37 Thus, the Kalash could be considered a genetically drifted ancient northern Eurasian population, and this shared ancient component was probably misattributed to recent admixture with western Europeans."

    We also looked at how this long-term separation, isolation, and low effective population size affected the patterns of genetic variation in the Kalash. One striking example is the frequency of the derived allele for rs4988235, which has been linked to lactose tolerance. The Kalash, like the MA-1, are fixed for the ancestral allele for this variant, whereas their neighbors in Pakistan have been observed to have moderate frequencies of the derived allele. Although this supports their long-term isolation, it is surprising in other ways because the Kalash have no reported lactose intolerance and indeed celebrate a “milk day” during their annual spring rituals.38 This suggests that there might be additional derived lactase-persistence alleles in the LCT-MCM6 (MIM: 601806) region in this population.

    In regards to an admixture connection with the BMAC or IVC - Iran_N next to the Kalash in Eurogenes K7 Ancients show very close admixture - Kalash are more E Asian and Villabruna shifted and Iran_N more basal_rich

    Pop:ID Ancient_North_Eurasian Basal-rich East_Eurasian Oceanian Southeast_Asian Sub-Saharan Villabruna-related
    Kalash:HGDP00281 38.74 35.02 7.69 2.27 3.39 0.38 12.51
    Iran_N:average 38.73 56.5325 0.985 0.9 2.35 0.435 0.07
    Last edited by bmoney; 11-20-2017 at 10:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Don't know if this is related to the IVC but the Vedic Saraswati river has been linked to the Helmand
    Nah, that would be the Arghandab river in Kandahar as far as I know.

    Ps: yesterday, I actually changed my avatar to arghandab river valley: my maternal line hails from there.
    Last edited by surbakhunWeesste; 11-20-2017 at 11:00 AM.

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  8. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Still not a Ved for the Nambuthiris.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=d7pH9WSbYzMC&pg=PA164
    What do you mean by this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Nah, that would be the Arghandab river in Kandahar as far as I know.

    Ps: yesterday, I actually changed my avatar to arghandab river valley: my maternal line hails from there.
    Nice! - this is the first time i've heard of this - a simple cognate lol... theres been a lot of back and forth between suggesting the Ghaggar river or Yamuna flow west and the Helmand, not much research on the Arghandab but seems legit:

    The river was known to the ancient Iranians as Harahvaiti,[1] which is cognate with Vedic Sarasvati.

    EDIT: Also found this: Haraxvatī is Arachosia, a region described to be rich in rivers, and its Old Persian cognate Harauvati, which gave its name to the present-day Hārūt River in Afghanistan, may have referred to the entire Helmand drainage basin (the center of Arachosia).
    Last edited by bmoney; 11-20-2017 at 11:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Nice! - this is the first time i've heard of this - a simple cognate lol... theres been a lot of back and forth between suggesting the Ghaggar river or Yamuna flow west and the Helmand, not much research on the Arghandab but seems legit:

    The river was known to the ancient Iranians as Harahvaiti,[1] which is cognate with Vedic Sarasvati.

    EDIT: Also found this: Haraxvatī is Arachosia, a region described to be rich in rivers, and its Old Persian cognate Harauvati, which gave its name to the present-day Hārūt River in Afghanistan, may have referred to the entire Helmand drainage basin (the center of Arachosia).
    Another trivial detail: the Pashtun tribe that live there are mostly of the Alakozai, branch of Durrani. Arachosia make have come from the tribe’s name: land of the Alako! I may have read that somewhere apart from lore as well.

    Woke up at 3am to post on AG lulz.
    Last edited by surbakhunWeesste; 11-20-2017 at 12:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Then which ancient pop resembles the Kalash?
    Kalash are like a 50/50 mix of Harappa and Yamnaya.

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    The Kalash represent a unique branch in the South Asian population tree and appear to be the earliest population to split from the ancestral Pakistani and Indian populations, indicating a complex scenario for population origins in the sub-continent rather than just the ancestral northern and southern Indian components identified previously.35 These Indo-European speakers were possibly the first migrants to arrive in the Indian sub-continent from northern or western Asia. This is supported by the higher level of shared genetic drift between the Kalash and the Paleolithic Siberian hunter-gatherer skeleton (MA-1) than between MA-1 and the other South Asian populations.

    "We observed that the Kalash share a substantial proportion of drift with a Paleolithic ancient Siberian hunter-gatherer, who has been suggested to represent a third northern Eurasian genetic ancestry component for present-day Europeans.36,37 This is also supported by the shared drift observed between the Kalash and the Yamnaya, an ancient (2,000–1,800 BCE) Neolithic pastoralist culture that lived in the lower Volga and Don steppe lands of Russia and also shared ancestry with MA-1.36,37 Thus, the Kalash could be considered a genetically drifted ancient northern Eurasian population, and this shared ancient component was probably misattributed to recent admixture with western Europeans."
    In their paper, Ayub et al state :

    The mean time of divergence between the Kalash and other populations currently residing in this region was estimated to be 11,800 (95% confidence interval = 10,600−12,600) years ago, and thus they represent present-day descendants of some of the earliest migrants into the Indian sub-continent from West Asia.
    Yet, also in the paper they state that the Kalash share drift with the NEOLITHIC Yamna (highlighted above, I have never heard the Yamna referred to as Neolithic). I have also seen others make the claim that the Kalash have one of the highest shared drifts with Yamna from SC/W Asian populations. But this is an oxymoron and here is why:

    If the Kalash diverged from other local populations 11,000 years ago, and have maintained isolation with their neighbors since, then they did NOT participate in admixture events with invading Yamna or Yamna derived populations, because Yamna is only 3500-4000 years old. CASE CLOSED. That is why my IBS plot ( fig 9) at http://www.eurasiandna.com/2017/10/0...e-ancient-dna/ shows that they share fewer alleles with Yamna I0231 than:

    Pashtuns
    Tajiks
    Kurds
    Georgians
    Iranians

    F3s also support IBS. So, I have no idea what the claim is based on (maybe someone can share, but IBS trumps any indirect methods of analysis), although the IBS plot with EHG (fig 10 on my website) does show Kalash higher up the list of allele sharing (comparable with Pashtuns). This does suggest contribution from a pre-Yamna from the steppe (unfortunately I do not have MA1 in the analysis).

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