Waves of migration into South Asia

[Terminus88]

There was never any migration, IndoEuropeans invaded a civilization on the verge of collapse due to mass mixing with the Indigenous people. An entire Cultural group was displaced and forced into South India, it's obvious with the language connections. The upcoming Harrapan study will most likely confirm the earliest Caucasoid population was a migration and/or invasion, primarily Haplogroup L, they displaced the Indigenous Australoid/Adavasi/Onge/East Asian tribal people. The original Caucasoid Indians were Proto-Elamites. They were largely brown skinned and resemble many South Asians of today.



What is important is the interactions the IndoIranians had with the BMAC Culture, genetic samples from the Oxus Civilization would be great. I believe the IndoIranians were largely a fair skinned people with majority light eyes, the BMAC was an established Neolithic Civilization who were more swarthy by comparison, fair-tan skin with primarily dark eyes. It would be interesting to see samples from the Oxus Civilization to confirm this.

The concept of not associating a Phenotype with ancestral genetics is slightly flawed, it has nothing to do with "race realism". If a population component is not known to be significantly mixed then you can associate it with a certain phenotype. Will probably be banned since this is a politically correct forum.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-was-Mongoloid

[tipirneni]

StuttGart LBK sample on GED comparison

Largest segment = 3.8 cM
Total of segments > 1 cM = 660.9 cM
444 matching segments

BR2 Hungary matching segment
Largest segment = 4.6 cM
Total of segments > 1 cM = 751.9 cM
505 matching segments

KO1, Hungary, 7.7ky
Largest segment = 3.3 cM
Total of segments > 1 cM = 70.6 cM
50 matching segments

CO1, Hungary, 4.8k
Largest segment = 2.9 cM
Total of segments > 1 cM = 34.9 cM
23 matching segments

NE1, Hungary
Largest segment = 4.0 cM
Total of segments > 1 cM = 656.2 cM
442 matching segments

Clovis, Montana, 12.5ky
Largest segment = 5.9 cM
Total of segments > 1 cM = 560.2 cM
374 matching segments

RISE 552 Russian 4ky
Largest segment = 3.5 cM
Total of segments > 1 cM = 189.5 cM
126 matching segments



Hinxton-4, UK, 2ky
Largest segment = 1.7 cM
Total of segments > 1 cM = 19.0 cM
15 matching segments

Haplogroup H1a widespread big percent of people in South/Deccan/Gangetic Plains. U2a1a found predominately in some places/caste

Historically big mixture with Kamboja (1500BC) mixed aryan people from BMAC/Steppe, Scythian (1500BC) from Steppe, Pallava(500CE) mixed aryan people from BMAC, Hunas (600CE) white hun from Steppe

[pegasus]

There was never any migration, IndoEuropeans invaded a civilization on the verge of collapse due to mass mixing with the Indigenous people. An entire Cultural group was displaced and forced into South India, it's obvious with the language connections. The upcoming Harrapan study will most likely confirm the earliest Caucasoid population was a migration and/or invasion, primarily Haplogroup L, they displaced the Indigenous Australoid/Adavasi/Onge/East Asian tribal people. The original Caucasoid Indians were Proto-Elamites. They were largely brown skinned and resemble many South Asians of today.



What is important is the interactions the IndoIranians had with the BMAC Culture, genetic samples from the Oxus Civilization would be great. I believe the IndoIranians were largely a fair skinned people with majority light eyes, the BMAC was an established Neolithic Civilization who were more swarthy by comparison, fair-tan skin with primarily dark eyes. It would be interesting to see samples from the Oxus Civilization to confirm this.

The concept of not associating a Phenotype with ancestral genetics is slightly flawed, it has nothing to do with "race realism". If a population component is not known to be significantly mixed then you can associate it with a certain phenotype. Will probably be banned since this is a politically correct forum.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-was-Mongoloid

Indo Iranians are a diverse group depending on what time period. Yes those Androvono/ Sintashta ones are very much depigmented, lighter hair and light eyes, but from the Iron age onwards they mix heavily across the board, Scythians and later East Iranics are a good example of that. Also Yamnaya /EBA Steppe are also different phenotype wise ( dark hair , swarthy, dark eyes) but those types were able to spread to Europe largely because they were largely in much better health and also carried bubonic plague genes which decimated a large part of mainland Europe's population in the Eneolithic and Bronze Age . Farmers in Europe tended to have poor diets and lived with germ ridden villages because of living with animals in a common place, as well.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(17)31328-3

Also this notion that LBK Farmers and other Euro farmers were like smurfs living in peaceful villages only to be vanquished by Yamnaya people is wrong. IF anything farmers were quite violent themselves often with each other from a very early period.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4568710/

As for Indo Aryans, they remain enigmatic in comparison to their more diverse and well documented Iranic cousins. They start filtrating through the Swat when most of the IVC cities had collapsed , but live right next too locals who have the same sort of culture as the IVC, judging from their usage of cornelian jewelry,. The earlier Indo Aryan cultural tool kit develops over time and diffuses across the Indus Gangetic plains slower than the Yaz culture in Iran, which rapidly diffuses in the Iron age giving rise to Medes and Achaemenid Persians.

Its not a politically correct forum, its just you have piss poor arguments.

[Terminus88]

Indo Iranians are a diverse group depending on what time period. Yes those Androvono/ Sintashta ones are very much depigmented, lighter hair and light eyes, but from the Iron age onwards they mix heavily across the board, Scythians and later East Iranics are a good example of that. Also Yamnaya /EBA Steppe are also different phenotype wise ( dark hair , swarthy, dark eyes) but those types were able to spread to Europe largely because they were largely in much better health and also carried bubonic plague genes which decimated a large part of mainland Europe's population in the Eneolithic and Bronze Age . Farmers in Europe tended to have poor diets and lived with germ ridden villages because of living with animals in a common place, as well.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(17)31328-3

Also this notion that LBK Farmers and other Euro farmers were like smurfs living in peaceful villages only to be vanquished by Yamnaya people is wrong. IF anything farmers were quite violent themselves often with each other from a very early period.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4568710/

Its not a politically correct forum, its just you have piss poor arguments.

Dravidian Caucasoids from Iran who started Elamite Civilization. Don't see how it is a "piss poor" argument, the Dravidian languages are primarily in South India now due to the IndoEuropean Invasion. The Harapan Civilization was more advanced, South India today is also the most developed region in South Asia, forward Castes in South India have more power/influence than they do in North India but I could be wrong. Migrating people often come into conflict with others, it isn't always the case but it is usually what happens. The Dravidians probably subjugated and conquered the indigenous Onge/Adavasi/Australoid/East Asians of India as well. The original natives were Australoid's who mixed with East Asians and Onge, closest to the original populations genetically are the Munda people and Adivasi in mainland India.

[pegasus]

Dravidian Caucasoids from Iran who started Elamite Civilization. Don't see how it is a "piss poor" argument, the Dravidian languages are primarily in South India now due to the IndoEuropean Invasion. The Harapan Civilization was more advanced, South India today is also the most developed region in South Asia, forward Castes in South India have more power/influence than they do in North India but I could be wrong. Migrating people often come into conflict with others, it isn't always the case but it is usually what happens. The Dravidians probably subjugated and conquered the indigenous Onge/Adavasi/Australoid/East Asians of India as well. The original natives were Australoid's who mixed with East Asians and Onge, closest to the original populations genetically are the Munda people and Adivasi in mainland India.

The reason why your arguments are poor is your stringing pseudo science BS and mixing them with facts which suit you to paint an incorrect picture.
The local substratum in Sanskrit is not Dravidian, its another language , called Para Munda or language X, likely a sister clade but independent language group.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

Dravidian Caucasoid is your term for Neolithic Iranians , use the correct word then. There is no link thus far to Dravidian and Neolithic Iranians, nobody knows what any neolithic people spoke lol.
As for agriculture in South India its much of a later event and deserves its own thread but considering rice farming spread earlier and was part of the IVC. Onge drifted 30-35 Kya from mainland Asia and SE Asians play apart in the spread of rice farming , its more complicated to parse

Also if your trying to reason current success in a region due to connections with a dead Bronze age civilization , thats a bizarre corelation.

[tipirneni]

The reason why your arguments are poor is your stringing pseudo science BS and mixing them with facts which suit you to paint an incorrect picture.
The local substratum in Sanskrit is not Dravidian, its another language , called Para Munda or language X, likely a sister clade but independent language group.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

Dravidian Caucasoid is your term for Neolithic Iranians , use the correct word then. There is no link thus far to Dravidian and Neolithic Iranians, nobody knows what any neolithic people spoke lol.
As for agriculture in South India its much of a later event and deserves its own thread but considering rice farming spread earlier and was part of the IVC. Onge drifted 30-35 Kya from mainland Asia and SE Asians play apart in the spread of rice farming , its more complicated to parse

Also if your trying to reason current success in a region due to connections with a dead Bronze age civilization , thats a bizarre corelation.

As far as Dravidian is concerned there might be different waves of people. You see records of Ellure/Ellore/Yalam etc in records of Southern Yadu kingdoms dating from 1000BC in Andhra/Deccan area. These people might not be proto-Elamite but later migrants from Elam forming caste such as Velama some Nairs some Reddys some Vellala Lingayat some Maratha. These people are big Yadu/Elam mix later from Bronze Age/Iron Age not the original pre-Elamite mix from Neolithic & Stone age. in fact there are very few records of pre-Elamite places in India in Rock caves/Hill tops etc...

[Terminus88]

The reason why your arguments are poor is your stringing pseudo science BS and mixing them with facts which suit you to paint an incorrect picture.
The local substratum in Sanskrit is not Dravidian, its another language , called Para Munda or language X, likely a sister clade but independent language group.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

Dravidian Caucasoid is your term for Neolithic Iranians , use the correct word then. There is no link thus far to Dravidian and Neolithic Iranians, nobody knows what any neolithic people spoke lol.
As for agriculture in South India its much of a later event and deserves its own thread but considering rice farming spread earlier and was part of the IVC. Onge drifted 30-35 Kya from mainland Asia and SE Asians play apart in the spread of rice farming , its more complicated to parse

Also if your trying to reason current success in a region due to connections with a dead Bronze age civilization , thats a bizarre corelation.

I know Dravidian Caucasoids are Neolithic Iranians, used my own words, they were still Caucasoid so it is correct. I said I could be wrong with the part you put in bold. People get emotional because they don't wanna accept the IndoAryan invasion theory.

[pegasus]

I know Dravidian Caucasoids are Neolithic Iranians, used my own words, they were still Caucasoid so it is correct. I said I could be wrong with the part you put in bold. People get emotional because they don't wanna accept the IndoAryan invasion theory.

Your own words are highly flawed then. Nobody is emotional but I have seen your posts in other threads, sorry to say you are a confirmed idiot, linking actors to Hurrians and what not.
So spare me the BS.

[anthroin]

As more and more days are passing, I'm coming to know that some linguists believe that the Dravidian languages influenced off the Indo-Aryan languages hard. While some scholars are shifting towards believing that the Dravidian speakers of the south Deccan migrated towards north in the time frame of the Indo-Aryan migration and these people were the commonfolk who were assimilated into the Indo-Aryan culture and language and thus the strong substratum influence, some scholars still consider the old view that some part of IVC may have spoken Dravidian. I recently came to know that some sort of Late Harappan culture continued to flourish in the Gujarat region archaeologically, until as recently as 800 BC or so with the initial Indo-Aryan route (put somewhere around 1700 BC or so) appearing curiously, to these scholars, to be avoiding that region or something like that.

But in any case, all these regions were also likely linguistically assimilated long before that 800 BC date. The interesting thing though is that there may really be the possibility that Dravidian really may have been involved in the northwest and west at that time, without knowing even a bit of the south. The major argument against this idea is generally that the south Indian Iron Age (beginning 1000 BC) generally associated with Dravidian languages ethnolinguistically does not show much cultural affinities with the Harappa civilisation or its aftermath. Also problematic is the fact that there is no archaeological trace of migration of Harappans towards south India proper after the collapse of their civilisation, while it is there towards the Gangetic plains. But not to say that such a migration is not possible at all. Some section of Harappan people who settled in Maharashtra during the IVC may have percolated into the south Deccan and made the natives there language-shift to Dravidian. For this to have any amount of likelihood as far as the archaeology of south Deccan itself goes, c. 2000 BC is the only possible number. It is the time when agriculture with native millets begins in south India proper and though many scholars believe that that agriculture had gradual native development in the region, I'm being crude and postulating that the agriculture in that region was entirely due to these migrants from Maharashtra. But we cannot argue anything reasonably with this sort of arguments of course- see the Indo-Aryans effecting language-shift of all the agriculturists of the northwest into Indo-Aryan. If that's the route taken by the Dravidian-speakers to effect language shift in south India too, the above implies that they were also that kind of an aggressive, war-like people. Which is definitely imaginable of course; if only we had any linguistic relative of Dravidian surviving, it would have been much better (edit: lol I may be appearing to be taking a somewhat refusing-to-believe-like stance regarding any violent aspects of the Dravidian speakers, but I'm genuinely not doing that; trust me- it's just that I do not happen to read so much about this Dravidian "war-like-ness" compared to its Indo-European counterpart lol- perhaps just something to do with no much linguistic and philological data being available to evaluate the hypothesis from the Dravidian side). It's all an absolutely untidy mess which I believe will not get a good cleanup until after some 15 years or so lol.

Another, even if slightly unrelated thing that's beginning to creep up in my mind these days is why Dravidian languages survive today at all, and why that big line that separates Maharashtra, Chattisgarh, Orissa, etc. from Karnataka and Telangana and Andhra exists at all. The Dravidian south did seem to overwhelmingly adopt the rice of the north beginning from some several centuries before CE. That, going by the common sense logic, may have involved several migrations of the north Indian Indo-Aryan speaking people into the south; If that is true, why they language-shifted to Dravidian instead of continuing to speak Indo-Aryan and effecting language-shift in the entire south of India to Indo-Aryan is beyond me. Do people have to be pastoralists and pastoralists only to effect language-shifts in new regions lol? I mean, the only major difference between these hypothetical large-scale-migrating IA people and their linguistic ancestors who migrated to India is that the former are agriculturists while the latter were pastoralists, isn't it? Did anything involved in this agriculture business mellow them out lol? Of course, there is also the other possibility that there was no large-scale migration to south India of rice farmers from late-OIA or MIA speaking north and east India with rice being majorly adopted by the local farmers who have been speaking Dravidian languages.

Edit: I came to know pretty much just now that the Old Tamil literature was full of glorification of warfare, so that may point to something after all; it makes the origins of these silly people even more mysterious lol. They may have as easily come off to south India as recently as 500 BC or so from some silly place somewhere.

[Kale]

That blog's writer is a White Nationalist who claims that Europeans traveled to the Americans way before the Norse.

Nice Ad Hominem you got there.