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Thread: Haplogroup N: Zone of Origin & Early Dispersals [split]

  1. #141
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    actually, his L731 was no call, Enlighten not cover this SNP. I double if L731 is a very recent family SNP.

  2. #142

    No,You believe in the gene tree too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    You are N-L731

    The basal branches of the haplogroup N are asiatic. Probably the haplogroup N was born in China, spred into Siberia and reached the north-east of Europe relatively recently.

    Your branch N > Z4762(18000BP) > F2905 (15700) > Z4784 (12700) > Y6374 (12700) > L727 (12500) > L732 (7700) > Y15972 (5600) > L730 (2600BP) is mainly Chinese.
    Gene tree is just a hypothesis

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    Another slide from the same presentation shows that the speaker reported that researchers had found evidence of long-term genetic continuity in Tungusic-populated areas. If you follow Alexander M. Kim's twitter feed, you will find that a different speaker giving a different presentation at the same conference also reported a similar finding (long-term persistence of demes in northeastern Asia with high levels of genetic distance between demes). You can also see that the N1b1 individual from the Early Neolithic stratum at Houtaomuga shares the same highly derived subclade of mtDNA haplogroup B with one of the individuals from the Early Iron Age stratum at the same site.

    Y-DNA haplogroup N-M178 has known representatives in at least two different branches of possibly Neolithic time depth among the Nanai and Oroqen, who preserve their distinct cultures in parts of Northeast China even today. On the other hand, I have not encountered any clear case of Y-DNA haplogroup N-CTS582 among non-Han inhabitants of Northeast China. N1b-F2930 as a whole seems to be relatively common among (Lolo-Burmese, Palaung-Wa, Daic, etc.) populations of the southwest.

    Anyway, I think the circumstantial evidence all points toward a likelihood that this specimen from an Early Neolithic stratum at the Houtaomuga site may belong to N-M178. I do not see any evidence that would lead me to expect the specimen to be N-CTS582 rather than N-M178. I would be happy with whatever the researchers discover as long as they deign to note which Y-SNPs they have tested.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Looks like CTS582 has two branches itself, and the Y6374-branch which has no identified southern Chinese in Yfull has an older MRCA and possibly a more northern distribution. Y23789 has southern Han but a much more recent MRCA. Post Neolithic move southwards may not be ruled out, but the final paper should have SNP identification to make things clear.
    Hi everyone, I am the Singaporean sample (ID: YF77954) belonging to the N1b1b-Y139167 subclade on yFull tree. I thought I'd bring some more recent evidence to the table because most of the research being done on N1b-F2905 is largely done within China by Chinese researchers only, therefore most material and information regarding these branches are only released in Chinese language which unfortunately does not find its way to a more international audience.

    Currently the most ancient archaeological evidence we have of N1b1-CTS582 are three samples from 3 different neolithic sites dating back 9600 to 8000 years ago namely Bianbian Cave, Xiaojingshan and Boshan located in Shandong Province which is eastern China; these remains were excavated by a local team under the leadership of Professor Fu Qiaomei at Fudan University quite recently (towards the end of last year). Other samples of N1b1-CTS582 also include one which was found at an archaeological site of the Lower Xiajiadian culture by a research team at Jilin University. Furthermore, autosomal DNA shows that these ancient human remains of the Shandong Early Neolithic and the people of the later Hongshan culture in fact clustered with one another and they shared similar cultural artefacts in terms of pottery. The autosomal DNA of these ancient people in Shandong early neolithic with N1b1-CTS582 were also found to have a much greater Northeast Asian component than modern day inhabitants living in the same region.

    These 3 samples of N1b1-CTS582 excavated in Northern China are, at the moment, some of the most ancient samples of N-M231 discovered to date. Generally a much greater diversity of N-M231 branches in Northern China combined with its current distribution pretty much debunks the idea that N-M231 or even N1b-F2905 could have originated in the southwest region of the country. This is greater supported by the discovery of N2-P189.2 which also has ancient samples distributed in southern Siberia, Central Asia (northern Kazakhstan's Botai culture). Today N2-P189.2 is mainly found in Europe and the Balkans but a few samples have also been discovered in northern China.

    In fact, the ethnic Yi who largely belong to subclades of N1b2-M1819 are known to have descended from an ancient Qiang population located in Northwest China who later migrated south. The Yi are known to have a caste system and a diverse range of different backgrounds and Y-haplogroups. N1b1-CTS582 is today still mostly found in eastern China and during the neolithic and bronze age era it was mainly distributed along the Bohai Sea in Shandong province, Liaoning province and Inner Mongolia along the Liao River.

    The sample found at Houtaomuga indeed does not belong to N1b1-CTS582 but rather to N1a1-TAT. It's just poor nomenclature which resulted in confusion.

    On the 23mofang platform we actually do have the ability to check for other users who belong to the same patrilineal haplogroup subclade and also its distribution map. At the moment my branch has 2 ethnic Mongolians, 1 ethnic Manchu, 1 Hui Muslim from Fujian province, and no Palaungic/Wa/Daic minorities unlike what you've mentioned -- the rest are all Han Chinese. Most people who belong to my branch (Y139167) are also Chinese from northern parts of the country rather than the south. N1b1-CTS582 is generally not found in ethnic minorities of the southwest, which largely belong to N1b2-M1819 instead (there is a separation of 15800 years in between).

    It is true however that Fujian province (southern China) does actually have a relatively large population of N-Y23789 but these mainly belong to the N-MF15025 subclade which is not shown on the YFull tree. This owes to the unique history of the region of Fujian province which is very mountainous and used to be sparsely populated. Some time starting from the Han Dynasty ~2000 years ago, the kingdom of Minyue was destroyed by the Chinese and many large families moved from northern parts of the country to the south. One of these families was known as the Zheng clan of Min which belongs to this branch (N-Y23789>N-MF15025); this family had underwent a population boom during their time in Fujian and in fact one of China/Taiwan's important historical figures known as Koxinga is from this family. He was known as a Ming loyalist, pirate warlord who tried to fight against the Manchu invasions of the Qing Dynasty, and for his military prowess in defeating the Dutch in Formosa and establishing Chinese control over Taiwan. In Taiwan today he is revered as a deity and there is great respect towards him in China and Japan (his mother was Japanese) as well. Side note Koxinga had a younger brother Tagawa Shichizaemon who stayed on in Japan who went on to have many descendants, so this subclade exists in Japan today as well.
    Last edited by SG_Jun; 06-19-2021 at 02:37 PM.

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  5. #144
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    I'll update here the PCA graph of autosomal DNA. Here it shows that the Shandong_EN (Shandong Early Neolithic) with N1b1-CTS582 clustering with Hongshan_MN (Hongshan Middle Neolithic) and L_Xiajiadian_LN (Later Xiajiadian Late Neolithic) samples.

    mmexport1616678258557__04.jpg

    Here are the Y-DNA test results collected by Prof Fu & team at Fudan University

    FB_IMG_1599783576364__01.jpg

    Sample of N1b1-CTS582 found at Erdaojingzi Archaeological site of the Lower Xiajiadian culture by Jilin University:

    mmexport1598661515558__01.jpg

    Samples of N1a1a2 and N1a1a3 at Houtaomuga Archaeological site:

    mmexport1602597401953__01.jpg

    The samples of N1(xN1a, N1c) of the Hongshan culture does not literally belong to N1*. There are very likely some downstream mutations and SNPs that they did not test for. I certainly hope greater sequencing will be done in the future for the remains of these Hongshan individuals, but at the moment it seems likely that they could have consisted of a mix of N1a-F1206 and N1b1-CTS582 branches as they were distributed in the general vicinity.
    Last edited by SG_Jun; 06-21-2021 at 03:07 AM.

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