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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #11
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    Here's another set of images for your consideration. They are from Busby et al's The peopling of Europe and the cautionary tale of Y chromosome lineage R-M269.

    R1b Maps Busby et al.jpg

    Notice that the greatest frequency of R1bxS127 (L11) occurs on the west coast of the Black Sea. Leeroy Jenkins pointed out to me that that was the home of the ancient Ezero and Cernavoda cultures, which are believed to have been Indo-European. S127/L11 then picks up as one moves west and north through Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Here's another set of images for your consideration. They are from Busby et al's The peopling of Europe and the cautionary tale of Y chromosome lineage R-M269.

    R1b Maps Busby et al.jpg

    Notice that the greatest frequency of R1bxS127 (L11) occurs on the west coast of the Black Sea. Leeroy Jenkins pointed out to me that that was the home of the ancient Ezero and Cernavoda cultures, which are believed to have been Indo-European. S127/L11 then picks up as one moves west and north through Europe.
    Chart (bB appears to match my L23 chart showing similar highest variance occurrence on the west coast of the Black Sea from the R1b-L23asterisk Variance combining both the Karachanak etal Modern Bulgarians and the R1b-Early FtDNA hplotypes-R1 back March 2013.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9...ew?usp=sharing

    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    Certainly the mobility of beaker people cannot have been all down to boats and horses would be particularly useful to them given the evidence for their mobility. I am sure there was a recent paper about domestication of horses in Spain -ether bones or DNA-but I cannot find it. I though it was Dienekes who posted it but didnt come up when I googled As far as I understand Spain was Europe's second centre of wild horses too. Maybe Jean knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Certainly the mobility of beaker people cannot have been all down to boats and horses would be particularly useful to them given the evidence for their mobility. I am sure there was a recent paper about domestication of horses in Spain -ether bones or DNA-but I cannot find it. I though it was Dienekes who posted it but didnt come up when I googled As far as I understand Spain was Europe's second centre of wild horses too. Maybe Jean knows.
    Post #6 in this thread, by Piquerobi, quotes a post from another forum that cites "Maier 1961; Piggott 1983" as sources for the decorated horse phalanges. I'm not sure what books or papers are meant, however. The quote attributes the reference to Maier and Piggott to "Olsen, S. (2003). "The Exploitation of Horses at Botai, Kazakhstan". In Levine, Marsha; Renfrew, Colin; Boyle, Katie. Prehistoric Steppe Adaptation and the Horse. Cambridge: McDonald Institute".

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    It is amazing how tough a nut to crack pre-beaker M269 has been. Its pretty clear as day it was a late arrival in much of Europe but its still very hard to have real confidence about its pre-beaker story with a number of options possible. However, its now getting very frustrating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I am sure there was a recent paper about domestication of horses in Spain -ether bones or DNA-but I cannot find it. I though it was Dienekes who posted it but didnt come up when I googled As far as I understand Spain was Europe's second centre of wild horses too. Maybe Jean knows.
    Didier Vernade was interested in this topic about 3 years ago, posting in the French language part of DNA-Forums. He had a theory about Bell Beaker (culture bearers) domesticating the native Pottock ponies of Iberia. I think I once posted links to that discussion, on Eupedia -- but they would be of no use now, because they linked to a defunct forum.

    Edit: Here's an allusion I made to the horses (based on Didier's earlier posts) 2 1/2 years ago on the WorldFamilies forum that was, at the time, quite popular -- and btw pretty much the sphere of our colleague rms2. Since I wrote that, I don't think I have wavered too much -- although last summer I did add grapes (from south central Asia) to the list of interesting domesticated species from the east that might be associated with this movement of people, ideas, and DNA.

    http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/i...0572#msg130572
    Last edited by razyn; 12-06-2014 at 10:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    Chart (bB appears to match my L23 chart showing similar highest variance occurrence on the west coast of the Black Sea from the R1b-L23asterisk Variance combining both the Karachanak etal Modern Bulgarians and the R1b-Early FtDNA hplotypes-R1 back March 2013.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9...ew?usp=sharing

    MJost
    Thanks for posting that R1b-L23* Variance map and table. A lot of progress has been made with better defining what is R1b-L23* since March 2013. The Bulgarian DNA and other projects have really been working hard in this area. Turns out there are a lot of clades to consider under L23 and that could influence this discussion. Any chance you could have another look at these early R1b-M269 clades?
    R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Certainly the mobility of beaker people cannot have been all down to boats and horses would be particularly useful to them given the evidence for their mobility. I am sure there was a recent paper about domestication of horses in Spain -ether bones or DNA-but I cannot find it. I though it was Dienekes who posted it but didnt come up when I googled As far as I understand Spain was Europe's second centre of wild horses too. Maybe Jean knows.
    I'm not sure if this is for the paper your were thinking of but check out http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post60602
    I had posted it in the Lounge cause I didnt know were else to post items related to animal domestication.
    dp :-)
    PS: I got bored that day...Yesterday I was looking at dog breeds. yip-yip.
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    rms2 and I have been discussing a possible Late Neolthic entry of R1b into Europe via PM, so I might as well give my opinion.

    I believe that R-M269 entered Europe in the form of Gimbutas' Second Kurgan Wave (3400 BC to 3200 BC). Which can be found here on page 120, Section II.

    Supposedly, this group introduced wheeled vehicles, yokes and copper-arsenic alloys to the area; as well as leaving new symbols on stelae as far West as Northern Italy and Switzerland. These symbols differ from previous Old European symbols left on statue-menhirs in France and Italy. Also, their weapons and metallurgy appear to be related to the Kura-Araxes culture (a culture some people have listed as a possible early R1b culture). I believe this Second Wave may be related to the Cernavoda and Boleraz cultures, or if those cultures are too old and represent the First Kurgan Wave described by Gimbutas, then R-M269 may be responsible for the Ezero and related cultures that appear around ~3000 BC. From their new home on the West Coast of the Black Sea, they moved West, forming cultures such as Vucedol, Baden, and other Trans-Danubian cultures that have arsenical copper and similar pottery to one another; that also includes Troy in Western Anatolia. They also merged with Bell Beaker groups moving in from the West eventually forming the Eastern Beaker group.

    If you read the passage below from The Oxford Handbook of the European Bronze Age, you will see that the R-M269(xP311) figure from Dr. Hammer's Origins of R-M269 Diversity in European, apart from matching the described territories of the early Ezero and related cultures on the West Coast of the Black Sea, also matches the territories that came to be occupied by the Eastern Beaker group very nicely (Iwno in the Baltic, Chlopice-Vesele from Little Poland, Western Slovakia and Eastern Moravia, Pitvaros/Maros in the Southeastern Carpathians, Cetina in the Adriatic Basin and the Grotta Cappucini element of the Laterza-Cellino San Marco culture in Southeastern Italy.)



    Last edited by Leeroy Jenkins; 12-06-2014 at 09:59 PM.

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    Great post!

    What makes you think R1b-M269 came with Wave 2 rather than Waves 1 or 3?

    I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I was thinking Wave 3 and Yamnaya, although it could be that R1b was present in all three. I like your thinking, though.

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