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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Great post!

    What makes you think R1b-M269 came with Wave 2 rather than Waves 1 or 3?

    I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I was thinking Wave 3 and Yamnaya, although it could be that R1b was present in all three. I like your thinking, though.
    If you look at the figure of M269(xP311), you will see that there is a big hole in the frequency of M269 where Yamnaya and Corded Ware groups settled. I believe R1b entering with the Second Wave, which correlates with the formation of Eastern Beakers and has some cultural relations to Kura-Araxes (another possible R1b-influenced culture), makes more sense than the Third Wave which is supposedly related to Yamnaya and Corded Ware (likely heavily R1a).

    I haven't researched the First Wave as thoroughly as the Second and Third yet, but they seem to lack arsenic-copper alloys and their migration off the steppes does not correlate as well with the distribution of M269(xP311) as the Second Wave model does. Especially since the Second Wave, through association with Ezero, can explain the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age cultural relationships between the Steppes, Balkans and Western Anatolia, while the First Wave cannot.

    Below is an excerpt from Mallory's Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture:



    In the written part included with the map, it discusses the relationship between the Steppe, Ezero and Western Anatolia. All hot spots for M269(xP311) in the figure from Dr. Hammer, and the path taken by Gimbutas' Kurgan Wave II peoples. On pages 122 and 123 in Three Waves of Kurgan Peoples, you also see her explain the link that Ezero provided between the Steppe and Anatolia.

    The Second Wave may also explain why we see LNE/EBA groups slightly closer to the MNE populations than CWC. While both are relatively close to one another in the image below, the Second Wave would have affected the former, and when the latter group moved into town during the Third Wave, they were absorbing a population already affected by two Steppe migrations and less Old European-like.



    Lastly, we have an Early Bronze Age girl from the Mako culture (BR1), a culture which seems related to Eastern Beakers and that descends from early arsenical copper working societies, particularly the Vucedol culture, that plots with the modern day French. This makes me think Western Europeans descend in large part from these early metal working societies, and the spread of R-M269 lineages into Western Europe may be part of what links them together.

    Last edited by Leeroy Jenkins; 12-07-2014 at 06:19 AM. Reason: added additional info

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    Here's something else to throw into the Beaker.

    The map below comes from a paper reported on a few days ago by Jean Manco, Direct evidence of milk consumption from ancient human dental calculus, by Warinner et al, which appeared in the 27 November 2014 issue of Nature.com. The researchers examined Beta-Lactoglobulin (BLG) in the dental plaque of ancient teeth as evidence of the history of dairying and milk consumption. The map shows that, coupled with the frequency of lactase persistence. The dashed ovals show where ancient dental plaque was tested, the numbers of ancient remains tested, and a pie chart of the results, with black representing the presence of BLG, indicating the consumption of milk.

    DentalPlaque Ancient BLG and Dairying.jpg
    Last edited by rms2; 12-07-2014 at 12:46 AM.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Here's something else to throw into the Beaker.

    The map below comes from a paper reported on a few days ago by Jean Manco, Direct evidence of milk consumption from ancient human dental calculus, by Warinner et al, which appeared in the 27 November 2014 issue of Nature.com. The researchers examined Beta-Lactoglobulin (BLG) in the dental plaque of ancient teeth as evidence of the history of dairying and milk consumption. The map shows that, coupled with the frequency of lactase persistence. The dashed ovals show where ancient dental plaque was tested, the numbers of ancient remains tested, and a pie chart of the results, with black representing the presence of BLG, indicating the consumption of milk.
    The spread of the 13910-T SNP, the one that allows LP in Europeans, seems to match the distribution of y-dna R1 lineages quite well.

    Last edited by Leeroy Jenkins; 12-07-2014 at 12:48 AM.

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  7. #24
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    What is interesting about the map I posted from the paper, Direct evidence of milk consumption from ancient human dental calculus, is that the researchers tested actual ancient remains, and BLG in dental plaque is pretty clear evidence of actual milk consumption rather than of dairy products with less lactose, like cheese or yogurt.

    The presence of BLG in the samples from Armenia and Russia (the ring on the map centered on the Caspian Sea) is intriguing. According to Table 1, one out of two Russian samples, circa 3000–1500 BC, had BLG in its dental plaque, and one of four of the Armenian samples, circa 2000–700 BC, had BLG in its dental plaque.

    There was also one of two ancient samples in Hungary that had it, c. 3000–1500 BC, and four of 17 in Italy, c. 2700 BC to 200 AD.

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    Looking at those maps makes me wonder if there is some connection between milk consumption and blonde/red hair. This may have been discussed before, but I missed/forgot it.

    Light_hair_coloration_map.png

    Or light colored eyes for that matter
    europe-eyes-general--lig.jpg
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 12-07-2014 at 03:33 AM.
    Y dna continued: Z142>Z150>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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    Be more concerned about seeking the truth than winning an argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Looking at those maps makes me wonder if there is some connection between milk consumption and blonde/red hair. This may have been discussed before, but I missed/forgot it.
    I know that lactase persistence in the British Isles increases as one moves north and west across them. That is the general cline for red hair carriers, as well.

    Red hair gene map British Isles.jpg

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Thanks for posting that R1b-L23* Variance map and table. A lot of progress has been made with better defining what is R1b-L23* since March 2013. The Bulgarian DNA and other projects have really been working hard in this area. Turns out there are a lot of clades to consider under L23 and that could influence this discussion. Any chance you could have another look at these early R1b-M269 clades?
    R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project
    Yes I would like to compile a new study some time. My spreadsheet is freely available for those who want to use their own set of subclade haplotypes. This old run used only seven markers because I used the Karachanak etal Modern Bulgarians dataset and pulled the HTs from the R1b-Early FtDNA using only the same seven STRs and combined the two datasets. My spreadsheet allows any subset of markers to be used to match those used in published studies.

    I can load one just for this task if someone can get me the old FtDNA format (multi-copy markers non-hyphenated) with 67 marker, no nulls or blanks. I would run DUP list which would be used to exclude them from the main groups. I could then publish it for downloading for someone to run the numbers.

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  15. #28
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    On pages 161-163 of her book, Ancestral Journeys, Jean describes the Stelae People and the trail of anthropomorphic stelae from the Pontic-Caspian steppe west across Europe to Iberia and Brittany. On p. 162 she says, "The earliest anthropomorphic stelae of this type have been found in Yamnaya burial mounds in Ukraine," and points out that "[s]imilar stelae are found at Bell Beaker sites in the Swiss and Italian Alps, and in the Italian regions of Lunigiana and Trento-Alto-Adige, southern France and Iberia."

    These same types of stelae are supposed to be present at the Afanasievo and Okunevo sites in the Altai from which Alexei Kovalev is alleged to have recovered ancient R1b.

    So, did the Stelae People carry R1b with them all the way to Iberia and Brittany?

    Since the earliest of these stelae are found in Yamnaya burials, is that an indication, by inference, that R1b was present in Yamnaya and was part of Gimbutas's Wave 3?

    That does not exclude R1b from Wave 2 or even Wave 1, but Yamnaya did occupy a central position in the Carpathian Basin relative to all those other Bronze Age cultures, and Gimbutas derived Beaker from Vučedol and Somogyvar.

    Anyway, regardless of Gimbutas's waves, what impact did the Stelae People who went to Iberia have on early Bell Beaker? Did they precede it, follow it, or were they contemporaneous with it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Anyway, regardless of Gimbutas's waves, what impact did the Stelae People who went to Iberia have on early Bell Beaker? Did they precede it, follow it, or were they contemporaneous with it?
    They preceded it. There are early stelae that are clearly Copper Age, but not BB. Then there are BB stelae related to the earlier ones.

    If the Stelae People had actually taken BB all the way from the Carpathian Basin to Portugal along with the stelae, then the deduction that BB came from the Carpathian Basin would have been so glaringly obvious that everyone would have realised it long, long ago, and I wouldn't have had to invent the term 'Stelae People'. They would have been BB People.

    It is only the trickier problems that are left for our generation to sort out.
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-08-2014 at 01:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    They preceded it. There are early stelae that are clearly Copper Age, but not BB. Then there are BB stelae related to the earlier ones.

    If the Stelae People had actually taken BB all the way from the Carpathian Basin to Portugal along with the stelae, then the deduction that BB came from the Carpathian Basin would have been so glaringly obvious that everyone would have realised it long, long ago, and I wouldn't have had to invent the term 'Stelae People'. They would have been BB People.

    It is only the trickier problems that are left for our generation to sort out.
    Could they have brought R1b to Iberia so that subsequent Beaker movement out of Iberia could have included R1b?

    I'm trying to establish some sort of chronology in my own mind. If the Stelae People brought R1b to Iberia, then early Beaker could have included R1b and would not have had to pick up R1b in the East, although it could have picked up R1b reinforcements there.

    And if the stelae themselves had their origin in Yamnaya, then the Stelae People were most likely derived from Yamnaya. If the Stelae People brought R1b to Iberia, then it is likely Yamnaya included R1b in its mix.
    Last edited by rms2; 12-08-2014 at 04:31 PM.

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