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Thread: Stratigraphy of J1 SNPs

  1. #1
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    Stratigraphy of J1 SNPs

    Stratigraphy of J1 SNPs

    One of the most important moments in history was the moment of surge of new snps in serie from GHIJK to G, H, IJ and K.
    http://www.yfull.com/tree/A0-T/
    Probably G moved to the West and remained a single line of more than 300 SNPs. H moved to the East, to the Indian Subcontinent and after only 30 SNPs we still can find old H branches. Branches of K would move to the Far East. Probably IJ remained in the same are around Northern Mesopotamia, Iran, Southern Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia with more 50 SNPs and then I moved to Europe. J remained in the same general area of IJ with more 150 SNPs. When J bifurcated between J1 and J2 we can observe early branches of J2 moving to the West in direction to the Mediterranean and some J2 branches moving to India. J1 remained in the general area of J, IJ and GHIJK.

    After the Last Glaciation J1 started to ramificate with modern living branches.
    Approximately age of the J1 branches (YFull tree and FTDNA Projects):
    16000 BC - 18000 years ago - Y6304, F1614. YF02055 Finland and Z2223 in Eastern Anatolia. Bifurcation after 50 SNPs.
    14500 BC - 16500 years ago (25 SNPs after the previous node), PF7261 - HGO3767 Punjabi, Lahore, Pakistan.
    14000 BC - 16000 years ago, (5 SNPs after the previous node), Z1828. A long line of 100 SNPs before new divisions in this branch like Z1842, 7000 years ago, 5000 BC.
    11500 BC - 13500 years ago, (30 SNPs after the previous node), M365. Bifurcation after 40 SNPs.
    10000 BC - 12000 years ago, (15 SNPs after the previous node) towards PF7264, P56.
    Between 10000BC and 5000 BC there was a long line of unbroken 60 SNPs with P58 and Z1878, then dividing in Z1889 and S4924-L817
    5000 BC - 7000 years ago, line of L817
    5000 BC - Z1889 divides in L92 and Z1865
    Z1865 divides in Z1853 and L860
    Z1853 divides in L862, PF5956
    L862, L147 more 15 SNPs
    L862 divides in Z2324, Z18297 and PF6328
    Z2324 divides in YSC235-YSC234, ZS2518
    YSC235-YSC234 divides in three: YSC80, ZS241, FGC4745
    YSC 80 divides in L858 and ZS177
    Around 2000 BC, 4000 years ago - L858 divides in Z640, YSC76, FGC11, PF4872, all are extremely derived bushy branches in the Middle East, Arabia, Africa and in Europe.

    The first basal J1 branches were born in the Northern areas of Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus, Northern Iran, Caspian Sea and they can be related to the Zarzian archaelogical culture. Northern J1 basal branches were related with Alarodian (Hurro-Urartian, NE Caucasian) and Ancient Iranian languages. New basal branches of J1 can easily be found in Iran.
    The long line of 60 J1 SNPs between 10000 BC and 5000 BC was related to a Southern movement of derived types of J1 (downstream of P58) and the possible association of those branches with the Halaf and Hassuna archaelogical cultures and the Semitic languages.

    Ricardo

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  3. #2
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    Did the size of the population play a role in the creation of new SNPs?

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     paulgill (06-20-2015)

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    A very long line of SNPs without bifurcations means a stable population in a stable region for a long time, that's the case of a hunter-gatherer population. New migrations, new technologies and a new mode of production can explain the bifurcations and the creation of distinct branches of new SNPs, so the increase in the size of the population is a result of new tools, new animals and new crops. Bushy branches full of new SNPs in the same territory is a result of the neolithisation.

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    Why did your branch (and mine, BY69) not diversify since neolithisation?

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    I think both branches are very old and they were in very competitive places/habitats because both branches were in the central core area : Eastern Anatolia, Southern Caucasus, Zagros, Northern Iran, I think your branch were a bit more to the West (Eastern Anatolia-Armenian Plateau-modern Azerbaijan) and my branch was a bit more to the East (Northern Iran-Southern Caspian Sea). That's a tough area full of diversity and no haplogroup has ever been hegemonic there in quantitative numbers. Only derived SNPs could colonize and prevail in peripherical regions like Western Europe - R1b M269, Eastern Europe - R1a 283, Southern Levant-Southern Arabia J1-L858, etc.

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    Actually it now looks like my branch originated in Europe, somewhere between the Bosporus and the Carpathians. Maybe 8,000 years ago. But I like your reasoning and I will think about that.

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    Good question. I would presume the branch, the line of SNPs from Z1828, Z1829, Z1832 and all the others until the posterior bifurcation of the Z1842 and BY69 lines still were around Eastern Anatolia because we can observe a good number of cases around that region and in the adjacencies like Georgia. BY69 line further divides in Z18471 and in your specific branch downstream of M8963, BY96 and probably somewhere along that line your SNPs would be entirely born in Eastern Europe. As NGS results are still expensive we can also try to detect the genetic distances in terms of STRs closely matching the haplotypes in a region in order to guess the chronology of the migrations and movements. After some time in a society the haplotype will grow at the same general rate of growth of the entire social group the haplotype belongs in that place. Matches and locations can help with the estimates and projections.

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    I'd like to see more data about (East) African J1, until that happens I will always get the impression we're missing an important part of J1's history.
    I'll just add that YSC234's age (~5889 yBP) seems to be in line with the breakup of Proto-Semitic around ~5500 yBP, this marker is probably the closest thing we have to a "Semitic clade" within J1 (I'm ready to bet Proto-Semitic speakers carried this marker).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 12-14-2014 at 06:13 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  14. #9
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    Yes, we need more studies about J1 in East Africa and in places like the Canary Islands. A recent article about Tunisia - "Sousse: extreme genetic heterogeneity in North Africa". 221 samples, 52 J1-L222, 5 J1-L147 and only one J1-P58, so no basal J1 was found in this article.
    http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/va...hg201499a.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Yes, we need more studies about J1 in East Africa and in places like the Canary Islands. A recent article about Tunisia - "Sousse: extreme genetic heterogeneity in North Africa". 221 samples, 52 J1-L222, 5 J1-L147 and only one J1-P58, so no basal J1 was found in this article.
    http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/va...hg201499a.html
    This study doesn't tell us much though, save the fact of course that most of the J1 samples seem to be of Arabian origin in Tunisia.
    There are two Canarian samples in the J1 FTDNA project, one of these is J1-Z2324* while the other is J1-PF7263. Both of these SNPs are above YSC234 and the latter is P58- (or, to make things clearer, a subclade of L136), of course it could've arrived with the Spanish settlement of the isles or even Phoenician "visits" but we won't know for sure until we test Fregel et al. 2009's pre-hispanic Guanche J1 samples and find which SNPs they test positive or negative for. In fact, it's just as likely that these lineages arrived there with Afroasiatic speakers.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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