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Thread: R1b U152 Updates/News

  1. #351
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    R-Z56>S47>Z44>BY3949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Some estimated frequencies using the FTDNA Haplotree
    (more in this thread).
    I have the impression that the numbers for Italy are a bit low, but in the haplotree their amounts of G, E and J seem higher;
    this is probably due to sample bias.

    U152 subclades (extrapolated percentages of U152):

    Code:
    	L2	Z36	Z56	Z193	U152*
    England	74.7	7.2	11.2	5.0	1.9
    Germany	68.3	19.9	6.8	3.1	1.8
    France	78.1	7.8	10.0	1.9	2.2
    Italy	53.9	21.3	18.7	5.7	0.4
    Switz.	65.4	25.0	5.8	2.6	1.3
    Spain	60.9	15.2	15.2	6.5	2.2
    Benelux	70.1	7.5	13.4	6.0	3.0
    Not a lot of surprises here, I think.

    Subclades of U152 (extrapolated percentages of total):

    Code:
    	L2	Z36	Z56	Z193	U152*
    England	4.7	0.5	0.7	0.3	0.1
    Germany	5.3	1.5	0.5	0.2	0.1
    France	10.9	1.1	1.4	0.3	0.3
    Italy	6.7	2.7	2.3	0.7	0.1
    Switz.	12.1	4.6	1.1	0.5	0.2
    Spain	2.4	0.6	0.6	0.3	0.1
    Benelux	4.8	0.5	0.9	0.4	0.2
    The results for Z56 in Germany and Switzerland when compared to Z36 are interesting.

    Unfortunately a lot of kits do not give their origin. A fair amount of these are from the USA and can be of British origin. These can be families of the same surname who have multiple kits. Maybe it's good that they don't name their origin because it could really create a sample bias .
    Last edited by G Livesey; 06-01-2020 at 03:10 AM.
    R-U152>Z56>Z46>Z44>BY3949
    U5b2a2b
    Ancestry DNA 2019; England, Wales, NW Europe 86%, Norway 7%, Sweeden 7%
    Ancestry DNA 2018; England, Wales, NW Europe 91%, Norway 9%
    Original Ancestry DNA; Europe West 54%, Great Britain 23%, Wales/Scotland/Ireland 13%; Scandinavia 7%; Iberian Peninsula 2%
    FTDNA; British Isles 81%, West and Central Europe 18%
    Paper Trail; England 87.5%, Wales 12.5%

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  3. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by G Livesey View Post
    The results for Z56 in Germany and Switzerland when compared to Z36 are interesting.

    Unfortunately a lot of kits do not give their origin. A fair amount of these are from the USA and can be of British origin. These can be families of the same surname who have multiple kits. Maybe it's good that they don't name their origin because it could really create a sample bias .
    Indeed; and if I remember well, many Italian Americans have a background in Southern Italy, and those with German ancestry often have ancestry from the Pfalz and surroundings.

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  5. #353
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    I have made maps of Z36 and Z56 using information from FTDNA projects; except for Francalacci's study on Sardinia, no exact percentages are known (although Boattini lists xL2 percentages for Italy). Percentages were estimated based on the proportion of subclades relative to each other.

    Z36_map.png
    Z56_map.png

    What do the maps tell us? I'm not an expert on Z36; perhaps a cumulation of intrusions from Switzerland into Italy since late Bell Beaker times, within Germany it might have to do with Hallstatt and La Tène; it seems conspicuously absent in France.

    For Z56, I think of the following scenario: it must have originated during the Bell Beaker period, either north or south of the Alps. Different subclades then settled in different areas: I think of BY3538 and BY3544 near the Upper Rhine and Z145 and S47 perhaps near the Ligurian coast since the end of the Bell Beaker period. These last two might have been Ligurian-related (initially I saw Z145 as more Hallstatt related, but it doesn't look so anymore to me). At the end of the first millennium BC they would have been romanized and their spread would have been largely by Romans, although some spread by Ligurians into Gaul territory during the first millennium BC is possible too IMO.

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  7. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    I have made maps of Z36 and Z56 using information from FTDNA projects; except for Francalacci's study on Sardinia, no exact percentages are known (although Boattini lists xL2 percentages for Italy). Percentages were estimated based on the proportion of subclades relative to each other.

    Z36_map.png
    Z56_map.png

    What do the maps tell us? I'm not an expert on Z36; perhaps a cumulation of intrusions from Switzerland into Italy since late Bell Beaker times, within Germany it might have to do with Hallstatt and La Tène; it seems conspicuously absent in France.

    For Z56, I think of the following scenario: it must have originated during the Bell Beaker period, either north or south of the Alps. Different subclades then settled in different areas: I think of BY3538 and BY3544 near the Upper Rhine and Z145 and S47 perhaps near the Ligurian coast since the end of the Bell Beaker period. These last two might have been Ligurian-related (initially I saw Z145 as more Hallstatt related, but it doesn't look so anymore to me). At the end of the first millennium BC they would have been romanized and their spread would have been largely by Romans, although some spread by Ligurians into Gaul territory during the first millennium BC is possible too IMO.
    Why do you think Z56 is "Ligurian-related" when it is most common in Tuscany, according to your map?

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  9. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Why do you think Z56 is "Ligurian-related" when it is most common in Tuscany, according to your map?
    Using Ligurian in the strict sense of the word is too narrow, although it would not surprise me if there was a dialect continuum between the Rhône and Tuscany during the early/mid-Bronze Age. An issue for me is, when and where did (Proto-)Italic speakers enter Italy? If we use the classical idea of a movement from the northeast with Proto-Villanovan during the 12th century BC, then they are not a very good fit for bringing Z56 with them, if indeed some subclades of Z56 were already present in Western Italy before that time and because of the lack of it in the north-east (although it could have been replaced later on). Within this narrative, most of Z56 would have been absorbed by Italic speakers (and Etruscans) during (Proto-)Villanovan times and would have spoken something else before that time. On the other hand, is the spread of Proto-Italic really settled? Although Proto-Villanovans may show some northern Balkan admixture, it seems not very abundant in the Praenestini Z145-man who is closer to current-day Southern France; I remain open to other possibilities.

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  11. #356
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    Just to add some specific L2+ data coming from a different source than FTDNA, this is my tentative map of the present-day U152>L2>Z49>S8183>S20782 distribution based on 23andme results.
    S20782's age should be quite old (somewhere between 2000 and 1000 BC, because it's part of YFull's R-Y17176 group)
    This SNP seems mainly related to the North Adriatic area and, until now, I was not able to find any different big hot spot than this area.
    So, if there is no a particular bias in the 23andme database or in my collection method, I think this SNP could even have been originated from this area.
    Or it could be the result of a massive migration coming from somewhere else, but that left, at least in the starting point, some residual S20782 trace (similar to what you see for instance in the map along the Rhine valley).
    But they are just my speculations.

    AGP_2.jpg

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  13. #357
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    My stepfather is Italian-American and tested with 23andMe and got U152 before the update; he would have gotten a downstream subclade with the update, I'll have to ask him. His male line is southern Italy, Naples area. I can confirm Pylsteen's idea that most German-Americans are Pfalzers; my male line comes from Feilbingert in the northern Palatinate, although I am R1a. The first German settlers in America were Palatines who came to Pennsylvania, the famous Pennsylvania Dutch; Benjamin Franklin called them 'swarthy Palatines' because we have more Celtic blood than the Saxons, I am a proud Swarthy Palatine, though my swarthiness comes from a Sicilian-American great-grandfather.

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  15. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Using Ligurian in the strict sense of the word is too narrow, although it would not surprise me if there was a dialect continuum between the Rhône and Tuscany during the early/mid-Bronze Age. An issue for me is, when and where did (Proto-)Italic speakers enter Italy? If we use the classical idea of a movement from the northeast with Proto-Villanovan during the 12th century BC, then they are not a very good fit for bringing Z56 with them, if indeed some subclades of Z56 were already present in Western Italy before that time and because of the lack of it in the north-east (although it could have been replaced later on). Within this narrative, most of Z56 would have been absorbed by Italic speakers (and Etruscans) during (Proto-)Villanovan times and would have spoken something else before that time. On the other hand, is the spread of Proto-Italic really settled? Although Proto-Villanovans may show some northern Balkan admixture, it seems not very abundant in the Praenestini Z145-man who is closer to current-day Southern France; I remain open to other possibilities.
    Perhaps Z-56 was connected more with the Latin-Faliscan branch of "Italic"in west-central Italy while the Umbrian-Oscan branch of "Italic" was more L2.

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  17. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    I have made maps of Z36 and Z56 using information from FTDNA projects; except for Francalacci's study on Sardinia, no exact percentages are known (although Boattini lists xL2 percentages for Italy). Percentages were estimated based on the proportion of subclades relative to each other.
    This may help you provide more detail/accuracy for Italy

    http://r1b.org/?page_id=242

    I discussed U152 subclades in Italy here

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post569868
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 06-06-2020 at 03:14 PM.
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  19. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    I have made maps of Z36 and Z56 using information from FTDNA projects; except for Francalacci's study on Sardinia, no exact percentages are known (although Boattini lists xL2 percentages for Italy). Percentages were estimated based on the proportion of subclades relative to each other.

    Z36_map.png
    Z56_map.png

    What do the maps tell us? I'm not an expert on Z36; perhaps a cumulation of intrusions from Switzerland into Italy since late Bell Beaker times, within Germany it might have to do with Hallstatt and La Tène; it seems conspicuously absent in France.

    For Z56, I think of the following scenario: it must have originated during the Bell Beaker period, either north or south of the Alps. Different subclades then settled in different areas: I think of BY3538 and BY3544 near the Upper Rhine and Z145 and S47 perhaps near the Ligurian coast since the end of the Bell Beaker period. These last two might have been Ligurian-related (initially I saw Z145 as more Hallstatt related, but it doesn't look so anymore to me). At the end of the first millennium BC they would have been romanized and their spread would have been largely by Romans, although some spread by Ligurians into Gaul territory during the first millennium BC is possible too IMO.
    Thanks for the map.

    What we need is some aDNA. The 2 Praenestini samples (Z145) are the only 2 so far and finding them in the Latium area was maybe a surprise? I agree with the Ligurian coast as a likely point of origin, but recently I am thinking more in to Tuscany for some of the subbclades.
    R-U152>Z56>Z46>Z44>BY3949
    U5b2a2b
    Ancestry DNA 2019; England, Wales, NW Europe 86%, Norway 7%, Sweeden 7%
    Ancestry DNA 2018; England, Wales, NW Europe 91%, Norway 9%
    Original Ancestry DNA; Europe West 54%, Great Britain 23%, Wales/Scotland/Ireland 13%; Scandinavia 7%; Iberian Peninsula 2%
    FTDNA; British Isles 81%, West and Central Europe 18%
    Paper Trail; England 87.5%, Wales 12.5%

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