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Thread: Irish and I1 ?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I wish I could find that same breadth of info for my father's side too, my mother's family tree is sprawling and goes quite a ways back into the early days of the Netherlands, with some genealogists having traced certain lines to the 1300s at the earliest. My father's direct paternal line seemingly ends in the 1790s as does yours, some lines go back quite a ways, others not so much. I wouldn't read too much into ones Y and mt haplogroups, they don't reflect what genealogically recent ancestors would have identified with. They are just small pieces of very distant ancestors that we happen to share genetics with. I guess we have to keep in mind that people migrate and eventually "disappear" into the area they migrated to...

    I was reading back in this thread and I noticed the question of which I1 haplogroups were found in Ireland and it has left me wondering if there is more Northern I-L22 clades found in Ireland or more Western I-Z140 clades... anyone have any ideas?
    I'd like to add I-Z138 to that list of I1 haplogroups in Ireland. There are a lot of people with the surname Cleere in Ireland, along with some in England.

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     JonikW (08-01-2018)

  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleerje View Post
    I'd like to add I-Z138 to that list of I1 haplogroups in Ireland. There are a lot of people with the surname Cleere in Ireland, along with some in England.
    I-Z138 and I-Z140 share a similar spread across Europe, with one seeming to be slightly more "northerly" (but not by much). I would imagine the original people carrying these clades belonged to the same wave of migration.

  4. #93
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    I-Z138 and I-Z140 do have a similar spread across northern Europe. I also should have added I-Z139 to the list, as it is just slightly downstream of the Z-138 branch, with some sources saying it is the same thing. When I looked at FTDNA's SNP map for I-Z139, I noticed something new and surprising. There was a concentration in East Anglia, mainly in Norfolk. It just so happens that there were people named Cleere living there. During my research, I came across Sir Henry Cleere of Norfolk, who had been knighted by King James I at Charterhouse in 1603 (he was only five years old at the time). He was born at Ormesby, St. Margaret, Norfolk in 1598 and died August 22, 1622, at age 25. His father was Sir Edmund Clere who had married Margaret Yaxley.
    Sir Henry Cleere married Muriel Mundford and they had a daughter named Abigail, who went on to marry Oliver Cromwell's son Robert (I think that was his name).

    Sir Henry's last name is sometimes spelled Clere, but with the term aka Sir Henry Cleere right after in parentheses. Evidently, they couldn't figure out which way they wanted to spell it. The name Clere is definitely Norman, with its origin just south of Vexin, Normandy between Rouen and Paris. So I might be related very distantly to the Clere's or Cleere's of East Anglia. It seems hard for me to believe that we are related to anybody with a lower noble background. My ancestor, George Emmet Cleere, was born in 1735 in Virgina near the Potomac and grew up to be a farmer, as his descendants did until the 20th Century.
    Last edited by cleerje; 08-03-2018 at 12:51 AM.

  5. #94
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    Oops, it was not Robert Cromwell that Abigail Cleere married, rather his name was John Cromwell, in 1631, and they had Joan Cromwell in 1634.

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    Origin of the name Cleere

    I have spent years researching this surname and have spoken to the author of the book ‘De Clares’. He is adamant that it is impossible from an etymological standpoint that Cleere could not have derived from De Clare. My own research bears this out without exception. We have no connection whatsoever to Strongbow or any of the De Clare dynasty. The name ‘Cleere’ is descriptive and in Middle English it was the accepted spelling of ‘clear’ - as in a clear sky. With the great vowel shift which marked the beginning of modern English ‘Cleere’ changed to either ‘Cleer’ or ‘Clear’. ‘Cleere’ as the Middle English spelling simply survived its Middle English spelling. I have traced my own genealogy back to the early 1700s and in the early days it was registered as ‘Cleere’, ‘Clear’ and ‘Cleere’ before reverting back to Cleere. It remained Cleere after English was codified in the early 19th century. Prior to the onset of Middle English the name was spelled as ‘Clere’ as a legacy of the French convention of a word of that sound. The name is definitely Norman French and is probably connected to the Clere family of Ormesby in Norfolk. However, the Clere family’s pedigree as French noblemen and contributors to the 1066 conquest of England has been cast into serious doubt by historians. They agree that the name and family are Normans but dispute their high pedigree as the claims made by the family have been refuted.

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    It's good to hear from someone with the same last name! I looked up the name Clere in Public Profiler's World Names, and the vast majority live in northern France. It list Cleere as being Celtic from Ireland, however. The name Cleere in Ireland is derived from de Cleir and O'Cleireagh, but you probably already know that. I have had my doubts about the name Cleere being only Celtic from Ireland, however. There are plenty of people from England with that name, both past and present.

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    Okay. I have been told several times recently that I ought to take the FTDNA Big Y test. I'm currently tested to 67 markers. Not sure what the Big Y test will succeed in telling me. Currently I am the lone Molloy who has tested for I1-M253 so it has been difficult to say the least finding actual familial connections via that route. The only paper trail I have is that my earliest known male ancestor on my father's side was born in Offaly in 1795 and died in Ohio in 1880. I think to boil it down, I would like to know what more would I learn or what more would be uncovered by taking the BigY? Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Kamo; 12-24-2018 at 08:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamo View Post
    Okay. I have been told several times recently that I ought to take the FTDNA Big Y test. I'm currently tested to 67 markers. Not sure what the Big Y test will succeed in telling me. Currently I am the lone Molloy who has tested for I1-M253 so it has been difficult to say the least finding actual familial connections via that route. The only paper trail I have is that my earliest known male ancestor on my father's side was born in Offaly in 1795 and died in Ohio in 1880. I think to boil it down, I would like to know what more would I learn or what more would be uncovered by taking the BigY? Thanks in advance.
    Big Y will give you more information than a simple SNP pack, it will test many (and I mean many) SNPs down to SNPs that aren't on the Y-trees yet. It will also provide you with matches and potentially filter out STR matches that are simply the results of haplotype convergence. Big Y will give you your most terminal SNP, my family had tested to I-Z140, and through Big Y we are I-A14097, quite a ways down the tree from Z140!

    However Big Y is not exactly a genealogical tool, unless there has been extensive testing on lineages that are related to yours. For my own case I took Big Y because some of my matches at 67 markers that I suspected to be distantly related to turned out to be on different branches from our main root haplogroup, which in turn makes our TMRCA much further back, which stops me from searching endlessly for possible links between these families with different surnames.

    I should add that testing Big Y is entirely up to you, and honestly it depends what you want out of genetic testing.

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