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Thread: Wales and DF41

  1. #1
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    Smile Wales and DF41

    Thus far, most of those in the DF41 Project have ancestry in Scotland or Ireland. Some of the entries are duplicates (relatives from the same paternal line), but even after excluding those, Scotland and Ireland seem to predominate.

    After Scotland and Ireland, Wales shows a number of DF41+ results. Here is a list of those DF41+ men who list a Welsh ancestor or who have a Welsh surname (excluding duplicates):

    Ellis kit 7889
    Evans kit 349812
    Jones kit 51112
    Matthews kit 67559
    Powell kit N39486
    Price kit 49109
    Samuel kit N104746
    Williams kit 144683

    In addition to those, the following are likely to be of Welsh ancestry but either do not belong to the DF41 Project or are brickwalled outside of Europe:

    Beddoes (kit number unknown)
    Stevens/Stephens (numerous kits)

    Here is how the names listed above break down in terms of SNPs downstream of DF41:

    BY114
    Ellis

    FGC13030
    Evans
    Jones
    Powell

    A600
    Matthews

    BY166
    Beddoes
    Price
    Samuel
    Stevens/Stephens

    MC04
    Williams
    Last edited by rms2; 01-07-2015 at 08:10 PM. Reason: Omission.

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  3. #2
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    I have not done a detailed analysis of the ancestral origins of every y-dna line represented in the R-DF41 and Subclades Project, but it certainly appears that in the Isles it's a subclade skewed to the western, "Celtic Fringe".

    Of those in England, two are in the greater London area, and one of those has the ancestral surname Matthews and lists "possibly Wales" among the remarks on place of ancestral origin.

    Here is the "all" map from the DF41 Project. I haven't made any effort to exclude redundant samples from the same y-dna lines.

    df41 all map 18 Jan 2015.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I have not done a detailed analysis of the ancestral origins of every y-dna line represented in the R-DF41 and Subclades Project, but it certainly appears that in the Isles it's a subclade skewed to the western, "Celtic Fringe".

    Of those in England, two are in the greater London area, and one of those has the ancestral surname Matthews and lists "possibly Wales" among the remarks on place of ancestral origin.

    Here is the "all" map from the DF41 Project. I haven't made any effort to exclude redundant samples from the same y-dna lines.

    df41 all map 18 Jan 2015.jpg
    Interesting that Southern Ireland is also underrepresented, I get the impression this is the case for DF49 x M222 as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Interesting that Southern Ireland is also underrepresented, I get the impression this is the case for DF49 x M222 as well.
    I'm guessing Z253 (some of it L226+), CTS4466, and DF21 predominate in Southern Ireland, with some M222 and DF23xM222.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Interesting that Southern Ireland is also underrepresented, I get the impression this is the case for DF49 x M222 as well.
    I'd imagine the south of Ireland is also underrepresented when it comes to M222 as well, which would be reflective of Irish history (M222 concentration highest in Leath Cuinn -- eg. line from Galway to Dublin)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    I'd imagine the south of Ireland is also underrepresented when it comes to M222 as well, which would be reflective of Irish history (M222 concentration highest in Leath Cuinn -- eg. line from Galway to Dublin)
    That's certainly the picture you get from the Chromo2 map of M222.

    R1b-M222 map from BritainsDNA.jpg

    Information is quite limited at the moment but I don't think DF49 x M222 is likely to achieve 5% of L21 anywhere in Ireland at the moment, let alone 5% overall, but it does seem more common in Northen Ireland.
    Last edited by jdean; 01-19-2015 at 06:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    That's certainly the picture you get from the Chromo2 map of M222.

    R1b-M222 map from BritainsDNA.jpg

    Information is quite limited at the moment but I don't think DF49 x M222 is likely to achieve 5% of L21 anywhere in Ireland at the moment, let alone 5% overall, but it does seem more common in Northen Ireland.
    Note that 30% for the entire province of Ulster (9 counties) and not just Northern Ireland (6 counties). You have to consider the fact that both Donegal and Cavan would have probably among highest levels of M222, both were rules by dynastical groupings that were probably M222+

    As an aside we really need to know their sample size for each region. Also problem with Leinster in that map is it doesn't reflect the historic reality of Leinster eg. the whole north of what we call Leinster was the historic province of Mide (Midhe -> ) eg. Meath in english, this was the territory of the "Southern Uí Néill", I'd also imagine Dublin probably adds a bias on the results for Leinster given the centripetal force of a capital city.

    Ideally they should break it into a county map which would at least give us a more fine grain geographic distribution. 3-5% in Northern Britain is interesting, though it would be nice if they had some sorta control (eg. excluding people with known Irish ancestry post 1800 etc.).

    I wonder if there is an equivalent DF41/CTS2501 map from them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Note that 30% for the entire province of Ulster (9 counties) and not just Northern Ireland (6 counties). You have to consider the fact that both Donegal and Cavan would have probably among highest levels of M222, both were rules by dynastical groupings that were probably M222+

    As an aside we really need to know their sample size for each region. Also problem with Leinster in that map is it doesn't reflect the historic reality of Leinster eg. the whole north of what we call Leinster was the historic province of Mide (Midhe -> ) eg. Meath in english, this was the territory of the "Southern Uí Néill", I'd also imagine Dublin probably adds a bias on the results for Leinster given the centripetal force of a capital city.

    Ideally they should break it into a county map which would at least give us a more fine grain geographic distribution. 3-5% in Northern Britain is interesting, though it would be nice if they had some sorta control (eg. excluding people with known Irish ancestry post 1800 etc.).

    I wonder if there is an equivalent DF41/CTS2501 map from them?
    Unfortunately not, though Jim has a group for S388 (L744) so presumably he has a map for them, assuming he found enough to make a dint.

    These are his L21 groups as of last summer, he may have added more since them but somehow I doubt it : )

    R1b-M222 Ancient Irish
    R1b-S1136 - Eoganachta
    R1b-S145 - Pretani
    R1b-S168 - Dalcassian
    R1b-S169 - Hibernian
    R1b-S190 - Maeatae
    R1b-S388 - Royal Stewart
    R1b-S530 - Pictish


    I'd love to get my hand on all of these maps, apart from anything else it looks like his L21 map is his version of L21* so ideally they need to be looked at together.

    R1b-L21 map from BritainsDNA.JPG

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    You're right, Dave, BritainsDNA (IrelandsDNA, etc.) does not have an S524 (DF41) map. My Chromo2 pages list my terminal SNP as S524, but the map I get is the S145 (L21) map above, which, as you said, must represent L21*, since it has way way lower L21 frequencies for Ireland (and elsewhere) than Busby has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    You're right, Dave, BritainsDNA (IrelandsDNA, etc.) does not have an S524 (DF41) map. My Chromo2 pages list my terminal SNP as S524, but the map I get is the S145 (L21) map above, which, as you said, must represent L21*, since it has way way lower L21 frequencies for Ireland (and elsewhere) than Busby has.
    The frequency of 23% for L21 in the Ulster region when M222 is reported at 30% kind of gives it away as well : )

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