U5 project update

[GailT]

I've updated the summary of the haplogroup U5 project (link) . Any comments or corrections are much appreciated. As of October 5, 2012, including the U5a and U5b FGS projects and GenBank, we have 924 full mtDNA sequences for Haplogroup U5, with the following totals by subclade:

U5a1: 299

U5a2: 167

U5b1: 212

U5b2: 202

U5b3: 40

There are also two possible U5a* test results that need to be confirmed.

thanks,
Gail

[J Man]

^Wow great update Gail! So it is really looking like U5b2c may have it's origins in the Iberian or Franco-Cantabrian refugium. This makes sense given the fact that the La-Brana Mesolithic remains turned out to be U5b2c1.

[Jean M]

It's really good stuff Gail. You ask for ancient remains of U5a1a to determine its geographic origins. It has been found in the Dnieper-Donets culture of foragers who turned to cattle farming. The find-site was Nikolskoye, Ukraine 5358–4993 BC. These were some of the people who seem to have formed the origins of the Indo-Europeans.

[Rathna]

U5a1 15218 16399
1. AY882398(Adygei) Achilli-Rengo U5a1 15-APR-2005 A73G T199C A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G G5585A G6023A T6674C C7028T A7569G G8251A A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16192T C16256T C16270T T16311C A16399G
2. AY882399(Italy) Achilli-Rengo U5a1 15-APR-2005 A73G A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G C5339T C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C12801T T13617C G13889A C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G G15466A C16192T C16256T C16270T A16399G
3. EU140332 FTDNA U5a1 15-SEP-2007 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3027C T3197C A4769G C5263T C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C13002A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G A16051G C16192T C16256T C16270T A16316G A16399G T16519C
4. FJ348174 Irene U5a1 29-NOV-2008 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C C4111T A4769G C7028T A8860G T9088C G9438A G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A A12810G T13617C A14145G T14221C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C15790T C16192T T16249C C16256T C16270T A16399G T16519C
5. FJ348215 Irene U5a1 29-NOV-2008 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C C4111T A4769G C7028T A8860G T9088C G9438A G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A A12810G T13617C A14145G T14221C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C15790T C16192T T16249C C16256T C16270T A16399G T16519C
6. GU296570(Czech) Malyarchuk U5a1 04-MAY-2010 A73G A263G 309.1C 315.1C C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16192T C16256T C16270T A16399G
7. HQ384205(Spain36) Gomez-Carballa U5a1 05-JUL-2011 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G C4796T C7028T A8422G A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A C12103A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14003T C14766T A14793G A14893G T14971C A15218G A15326G C16192T C16256T C16270T A16399G
8. JN982470(England) FTDNA U5a1 12-NOV-2011 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A3203G A4769G C5438T C7028T A8860G G9477A A9667G A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16192T C16256T C16270T C16291T T16357C A16399G
16192!
9. GU296640(Slovakia) Malyarchuk U5a1 04-MAY-2010 A73G A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G C7028T C7747T C7792T A8860G G9477A A9604G A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16256T C16270T A16399G T16519C
10. HM765468 Zaragoza U5a1 01-AUG-2010 A73G A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T3197C A4769G C7028T C7792T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G A15924G T16075C C16256T C16270T A16399G
11. JN412063(England) FTDNA U5a1 10-AUG-2011 A73G C150T A263G 315.1C T408A A750G A1438G G1709A A2706G T3197C A4769G C7028T C7792T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A G11914A A12308G G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16218T C16256T C16270T A16293G A16399G
U5a1a 1700
12. EF657259 mtDNA124(Eur.)Herrnstadt U5a1a 14-JUL-2007 A750G A1438G T1700C A2706G T3197C A4769G C4908T A5319G A6629G T6719C C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A C12064T A12308G C12346T G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G
13. GU296557(Buryat) Malyarchuk U5a1a 04-MAY-2010 A73G A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C 573.1C A750G A1438G T1700C A2706G T3197C A4769G A5319G A6629G T6719C C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G C12346T G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16256T C16270T A16399G
14. GU296620(Russia) Malyarchuk U5a1a 04-MAY-2010 A73G A263G 315.1C 523.1C 523.2A A750G A1438G T1700C A2706G T3197C A4769G A5319G A6629G T6719C C7028T G8764A A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A A12308G C12346T G12372A T13617C C14766T A14793G A15218G A15326G C16256T A16399G
15. GU296623(Russia) Malyarchuk U5a1a 04-MAY-2010 A73G A263G 315.1C 573.1C A750G A1438G T1700C A2706G T3197C A4769G A5319G A6629G T6719C C7028T A8860G G9477A A11467G G11719A C12237T A12308G C12346T G12372A A12699G T13617C C14766T A14793G G14905A A15218G A15326G C16256T A16399G

Gail, also from these data we can see that U5a1 is overwhelmingly Western European, and only from U5a1a we have a presence in eastern Europe and the Russian plane, what Malyarchuk and colleagues have demonstrated many times in their papers, i.e. that the migration was from West to East, and we haven’t in the Western Europe subclades of U5a1a, then there wasn’t a migration from East to West as Jean M pretends with her theory of the stelae people, what many people have demonstrated on other forums to be wrong.

[GailT]

Thanks, Jean! I'll take a look at all of the ancient U5a1 and try to see if any of them have useful HVR results to predict a lower level subclade. You also have another test result on your page that also points to U5a1 in Russia very early:

Russia Lebyazhinka [IVa] M 8000-7000 BC U5a1 16192T, 16241C, 16256T, 16270T, 16399G; +12308 HinfI Bramanti 2009

And these that could be U5a1d2a:

Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture Mongolia Olon-Kurin-Gol Valley cemetery 400-200 BC U5a1 16086C, 16189C, 16192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16304C, 16399G, 00073G, +12308 HinfI. Pilipenko 2010
Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture Altai Republic Verkh-Kaldzhin II U5a1 16192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16304C Pilipenko 2010 from Molodin 200

which is found in a Tatar and in the NE Altai in the two available present day samples.

[GailT]

Rathna - I have all of the Mayarchuck test results and also everything else from U5 in GenBank. U5a1a1 has a strong presence in eastern Europe and Russia and also some test results in Turkey, Iran, Armenia, India and Buryatia. My U5a1 Group I is in both northern Europe and south Asia. U5a1b is mostly found in northern Europe and Russia. U5a1c is mostly found in eastern Europe and Russia. U5a1d is in Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Belorus, a Buryat, a Tatar and a sample from northeastern Altai. U5a1e is in Germany, Poland and Russia. With the exception of U5a1h which is very young at the end of a long bottle neck, all of the U5a1 subclades have a strong presence in northern Europe, eastern Europe and Russia and points further east and south. It does seem to point to an origin of U5a1 in an ice refuge further east, perhaps the Ukraine. Given that we probably have an oversampling bias from western and northern Europe, this might also favour an eastern origin for U5a1. Another interesting question is why did U5a1a1 and U5a1b expand so much more rapidly than their sister clades?

Gail, also from these data we can see that U5a1 is overwhelmingly Western European, and only from U5a1a we have a presence in eastern Europe and the Russian plane, what Malyarchuk and colleagues have demonstrated many times in their papers, i.e. that the migration was from West to East, and we haven’t in the Western Europe subclades of U5a1a, then there wasn’t a migration from East to West as Jean M pretends with her theory of the stelae people, what many people have demonstrated on other forums to be wrong.

[GailT]

^Wow great update Gail! So it is really looking like U5b2c may have it's origins in the Iberian or Franco-Cantabrian refugium. This makes sense given the fact that the La-Brana Mesolithic remains turned out to be U5b2c1.

Thanks J Man, and yes, based on both present distribution and ancient DNA, this seems likely. And it seems to indicate a connection between the NW coast of Spain and the British Isles, perhaps helping to confirm some oral traditions, although this connection could have been very ancient.

[Rathna]

Rathna - I have all of the Mayarchuck test results and also everything else from U5 in GenBank. U5a1a1 has a strong presence in eastern Europe and Russia and also some test results in Turkey, Iran, Armenia, India and Buryatia. My U5a1 Group I is in both northern Europe and south Asia. U5a1b is mostly found in northern Europe and Russia. U5a1c is mostly found in eastern Europe and Russia. U5a1d is in Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Belorus, a Buryat, a Tatar and a sample from northeastern Altai. U5a1e is in Germany, Poland and Russia. With the exception of U5a1h which is very young at the end of a long bottle neck, all of the U5a1 subclades have a strong presence in northern Europe, eastern Europe and Russia and points further east and south. It does seem to point to an origin of U5a1 in an ice refuge further east, perhaps the Ukraine. Given that we probably have an oversampling bias from western and northern Europe, this might also favour an eastern origin for U5a1. Another interesting question is why did U5a1a1 and U5a1b expand so much more rapidly than their sister clades?

Hi Gail, I thank you very much for your response: you should be the most expert of this haplogroup. But my purpose wasn’t that to investigate about the origin of U5a and U5b (even though Behar2012b reports MC15021/DQ156212, Montiel-Sosa 2006 for U5a and MC598, MC18705/GQ129146 and MC21275/JQ074232 for U5b, which would seem indicate South-Western Europe), but to ascertain if it was reliable what Jean M affirmed: that by U5a1a in ancient mtDNA of the Russian plane we could have a witness of the origin of the Indo-Europeans and of the peopling of Western Europe by the stelae people.

The samples I posted above were taken by the Ian Logan spreadsheet, but you know that we have had now Phylotree 15, and the samples posted above like U5a1a 1700 are all U5a1a2a (2830.9 +/- 2533.1), then a late subclade (A5319G, A6629G, T6719C).

I’d be glad, before doing a deep exam of the situation, to know your thinking about this, i.e. if what Jean M affirmed is, by an exam of this haplogroup, reliable.

[Jean M]

U5a1 15218 16399
Gail, also from these data we can see that U5a1 is overwhelmingly Western European, and only from U5a1a we have a presence in eastern Europe and the Russian plane, what Malyarchuk and colleagues have demonstrated many times in their papers, i.e. that the migration was from West to East, and we haven’t in the Western Europe subclades of U5a1a, then there wasn’t a migration from East to West as Jean M pretends with her theory of the stelae people

Deary me. Seems to be some confusion here. The Indo-Europeans spread in all directions from a homeland on the European steppe. The movement that I label the Stelae People is just one chapter in the lengthy saga of the spread of Indo-European languages. The Stelae People is the trail that led to Italy and Iberia. Other trails went east to the Asian steppe and from there to the Tarim Basin, Iran and India. Another trail (in fact several in succession) went into Anatolia, one of which ended up in Armenia. Other trails went north up the Danube, Dnieper and Dniester. It is a very long story and it involves more than one Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup. Different haplogroups predominate in different parts of the Indo-European speaking world.

I say in my text (under Slavic genetic mix) "Since the distribution of U5a is weighted towards Eastern Europe, it may have evolved in an Ice Age refuge in south-eastern Europe."

Gail was asking about evidence for the origin of U5a1a, since she notes that it is now a common haplogroup within U5. She wondered if it had become involved in farming, since it had a burst of expansion at about that period. I was providing evidence which might explain its expansion.

what many people have demonstrated on other forums to be wrong.

No they haven't. (Sigh.) It is just that the trail I describe from the steppe to Italy and Iberia, so clearly marked in the archaeology, is particularly annoying to those who want to argue that the Proto-Indo-European homeland was in Anatolia, Armenia, Poland, Germany, Latvia, the Netherlands, the North Pole, India, the Moon or anywhere other than the European steppe, where the overwhelming majority of IE linguists place it. The archaeological evidence supporting that location was laid out by David Anthony in The Horse, The Wheel and Language (2007).

[Rathna]

the North Pole

I am seeing that you read very carefully these other forums, where a friend of mine ( I am from India, but he comes from Southern Europe) who takes my same name, used for fun that place and you made him ban once more. Don’t you think that it would be better and more fascinating to use intelligence and arguments rather than banishments?
I am waiting for the response of Gail, i.e. a response made by Genetic arguments and not by chat.