Y-STR Haplotypes of T1-R1 and Ancient Eurasian Dna Studies

[isbara]

1.
I recently read about the research tool 23andme is offering. Is it possible that i can request the statistics(percentages of T in all countries) of Y-DNA haplogroup T and R1a? Does anyone know how to reach 23andme helpdesk, because i could not reach them.

2.
Does the database of 23andme also have ancient dna results?

3.
At another forum professor Anatole Klyosov(http://www.rodstvo.ru/forum/lofivers...php?t1892.html), wrote about the unusual phenomenon of the similarity of two basal haplotypes of Y-DNA haplogroups R1a and T1a. There is a match of 15/22 Y-STR markers between the following values:

12 12 13 - 11 11 - 11 - 11 8 16 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12 (R1a)
11 12 13 - 11 13 - 9 - 11 8 17 17 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 11 12 11 12 (T1a)

About this subject it is written by a user in this link: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive...p/t-28633.html

“The feeling that T - is an early R1a1, which mutated DYS426 12 -> 11, but DYS392 = 13 survived from ancient R1a1 (by the way, is the same and R1b). Haplogroup T definitely does not fit into an existing tree haplogroups after a series of 2009-2011, side moves.”

I know the Y-SNP is different, but Haplogroup T(or K2) has now moved from places 2-3 times in the Y-tree, so is there a possibility there could be a connection between T and R? What if new SNP's would be found to proof this? Would this not clear the fact that haplogroup T is found rarely in all studies done till now?

What do you think about the Y-STR similarity between the basal haplotypes of R1a and T1a? Did anyone see same kind of results in other databases, when you compare R1a and T1 haplotypes?

4.
Except the known Ftdna project databases, which databases can i publicly use or make a request to research the statistics of the haplogroup results for haplotypes with 23-23 values for Y-STR markers YCAII-a-b?

5.
There is a company called interpretome, which can generate graphics of 23andme results i think, because i saw a graphic posted on an another forum page about this. Do you know what the relations between these two companies are?

6.
-At the “The Y-chromosome tree bursts into leaf: 13,000 high-confidence SNPs covering the majority of known clades” study, the most basal branch of haplogroup T is of a Bhutanese person with ID Bhu-1892. Bhutan is a country within the borders of China and India. What do you guys think about this, what does this mean for the origin of haplogroup T?

-Also it is a known fact that Dravidians had more than 50%(“High Resolution Phylogeographic Map of Y-Chromosomes Reveal the Genetic Signatures of Pleistocene Origin of Indian Populations”) of haplogroup T.

-Also at the study “A Western Eurasian Male Is Found in 2000-Year-Old Elite Xiongnu Cemetery in Northeast Mongolia” this is written:

“Calculation by DNA#VIEW shows that the autosomal profile of Xiongnu Cemetery with ID MNX3(mt: U2e1, Y: R1a1) West Eurasian male is 14 times more probable from a Brahmin Indian than from a modern Caucasian (Table 6).”

-Also there was a study about Xiaohe graves(3500-4000 YBP), http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2013/01...rom-china.html. There was 11x R1a1a and 1x K*-M9. We know from older studies that marker M70 was the most closest SNP child existing from M9 marker, thats why it was called earlier K2. Is it possible that R1a and T1 could have a connection because of this situation in which 1 K-M9 is associated with a group of 11x R1a? Maybe some groups of M9 marker stayed together in Central/East Asian regions before and after the mutations of some haplogroups occured?

-What do you think about all these points?

7.
At the study “Haplotype Diversity in mtDNA and Y-Chromosome in Populations of Altai–Sayan Region” Haplogroup K-M9(xL, N, O, P) is found with 38.8%. In an earlier study Haplogroup T was found within Altaian Kazakhs(Y-Chromosome Variation in Altaian Kazakhs Reveals a Common Paternal Gene Pool for Kazakhs and the Influence of Mongolian Expansions) again after a situation of K-M9(N, O, P) i think. Do you think that the 38.8% of K-M9(xL, N, O, P) could belong to Haplogroup T? I asked professor Gubina about this, and she told me marker of T was not typed, and she has no plans for this in the future. Is there someone that could try to test these K-M9(xL, N, O, P) samples further to see if T is found among them?

8.
In an Y-STR only study of 2003 of professor Keyser-Tracqui about Xiongnu graves of 2000 years ago in Mongolia, there is a there is a grave with number 76. The haplotype of this sample has 5 Y-STR markers tested, in which these results were found: DYS392:13, DYS393:13, DYS19=14, YCAIIa-b:23-23.

The YCAIIa-b value of 23-23 is very unique, together with DYS14(14), DYS392(13), DYS393(13) it is found in only specificly haplogroups T-M70 and R1b. I have searched and analyzed all T-M70 and R1b haplotypes at Familytreedna.com, and found that 27/649 T-M70 haplotypes were a match(4,16%) and 21/5650 R1b haplotypes(0,37%) were a match. Looking at the YCAIIa-b values of the T-M70 and R1b haplotypes at Familytreedna.com, i saw that R1b haplotypes had mostly the following structure YCAIIa-b(19-...). T-M70 haplotypes had mostly the following structure YCAIIa-b(23-...). Also the fact that the haplotype prediction of grave number 84bis(and maybe also the haplotype of grave number 95) is specificly unique for haplogroup L-M20, do you think the outcome of grave number 76 has higher probabilities for T-M70 than R1b? Is there someone, maybe from the Ftdna T groups that can maybe test the Y-SNP haplogroup of this ancient grave number 76?

Also professor Keyser-Tracqui said that she was busy with a new project about Xiongnu graves in a cemetery with a new location in Mongolia. Does someone know what the status of this study is? Are there other new ancient dna projects going on about this subject?

9.
In the study of David K. Faux in 2007, “The Genetic Link of the Viking – Era Norse to Central Asia:An Assessment of the Y Chromosome DNA, Archaeological,Historical and Linguistic Evidence”, he said he found in Shetland project, haplogroups K2-M70, R1a and Q, and he also makes a connection between T and R1a and says these came together from Central Asia to Eurasian regions.

10.
At this page http://221.145.178.204/nrichdata/etc...e/KBJ16_01.pdf there is a wide ancient dna study performed, with 1462 ancient samples in 2007 by professor Kijeong Kim from South Korean Chung-Ang University. 8 years have been passed, and the results are still not published. In 2010 there was only the result of a single sample of these 1462 ancient samples published within a paper named “A western Eurasian male is found in 2000-year-old elite Xiongnu cemetery in Northeast Mongolia.”, which showed the first occurence of R1a among Xiongnu grave samples. There are thousands of other Scythian(11th BC - 2th centuries AD), Xiongnu(3th-3th centuries BC), Hun(3th-6th centuries) and Turk(6th-8th centuries) graves in Eurasian regions. What if they all got tested and showed interesting results that could change all the conclusions made by scientists about dna migration routes?
I have contacted Kijeong Kim about this situation, and he persists on not sharing the Y-SNP haplogroup results. As a reason he says they have not performed repeat analysis. But even if a part of the results could be wrong, for example maybe 0 - 5% of the 1462 ancient samples, isnt it really useful to have at least a good preview picture what can let other dna project investors to invest in reanalyses of parts of these samples? Why should such a massive pre study be kept private? Do you think there could be a political pressure to not publish these results? I dont understand what they could loose if they publish results of such an important study? Who does agree with me on this subject? Are there academics on this forum that could convince professor Kijeong Kim to publish these pre results?

[dp]

Dear isbara,
Welcome to Anthrogenica.
dp :-)

[isbara]

Dear isbara,
Welcome to Anthrogenica.
dp :-)

Thanks man.

[lgmayka]

At this page http://221.145.178.204/nrichdata/etc...e/KBJ16_01.pdf there is a wide ancient dna study performed, with 1462 ancient samples in 2007 by professor Kijeong Kim from South Korean Chung-Ang University.

---
Molecular phylogenetic results demonstrated that ancient Korea, Shilla and ancient Mongolian, Scythian had very similar constitution of Y haplogroups whereas Korean and Mongolian of other historical periods showed no similarity each other. Except of similarity between Shilla and Scythian, Korean, Mongolian and Uzbek were quite different each other in the constitution of Y haplogroups irrespectively of historical period. mtDNA results also demonstrated that there was close relationship between Shilla and Scythian in constitution of mtDNA haplogroups, and the other group including Mongolian Bronze, modern, ancient Uzbek, Nukdo Korean, Baekjae and Chosun showed the similar pattern in constitution of mtDNA haplogroups. However, Xiongnu showed no similarity with all populations of different historical periods and regions.
---

If I understand this correctly, the Korean Shilla/Silla dynasty had Y-DNA and mtDNA similar to those of Mongolian Scythians. I can easily imagine that such a topic might be politically sensitive.

[vettor]

1.
I recently read about the research tool 23andme is offering. Is it possible that i can request the statistics(percentages of T in all countries) of Y-DNA haplogroup T and R1a? Does anyone know how to reach 23andme helpdesk, because i could not reach them.

2.
Does the database of 23andme also have ancient dna results?

3.
At another forum professor Anatole Klyosov(http://www.rodstvo.ru/forum/lofivers...php?t1892.html), wrote about the unusual phenomenon of the similarity of two basal haplotypes of Y-DNA haplogroups R1a and T1a. There is a match of 15/22 Y-STR markers between the following values:



About this subject it is written by a user in this link: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive...p/t-28633.html



I know the Y-SNP is different, but Haplogroup T(or K2) has now moved from places 2-3 times in the Y-tree, so is there a possibility there could be a connection between T and R? What if new SNP's would be found to proof this? Would this not clear the fact that haplogroup T is found rarely in all studies done till now?

What do you think about the Y-STR similarity between the basal haplotypes of R1a and T1a? Did anyone see same kind of results in other databases, when you compare R1a and T1 haplotypes?

4.
Except the known Ftdna project databases, which databases can i publicly use or make a request to research the statistics of the haplogroup results for haplotypes with 23-23 values for Y-STR markers YCAII-a-b?

5.
There is a company called interpretome, which can generate graphics of 23andme results i think, because i saw a graphic posted on an another forum page about this. Do you know what the relations between these two companies are?

6.
-At the “The Y-chromosome tree bursts into leaf: 13,000 high-confidence SNPs covering the majority of known clades” study, the most basal branch of haplogroup T is of a Bhutanese person with ID Bhu-1892. Bhutan is a country within the borders of China and India. What do you guys think about this, what does this mean for the origin of haplogroup T?

-Also it is a known fact that Dravidians had more than 50%(“High Resolution Phylogeographic Map of Y-Chromosomes Reveal the Genetic Signatures of Pleistocene Origin of Indian Populations”) of haplogroup T.

-Also at the study “A Western Eurasian Male Is Found in 2000-Year-Old Elite Xiongnu Cemetery in Northeast Mongolia” this is written:


-Also there was a study about Xiaohe graves(3500-4000 YBP), http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2013/01...rom-china.html. There was 11x R1a1a and 1x K*-M9. We know from older studies that marker M70 was the most closest SNP child existing from M9 marker, thats why it was called earlier K2. Is it possible that R1a and T1 could have a connection because of this situation in which 1 K-M9 is associated with a group of 11x R1a? Maybe some groups of M9 marker stayed together in Central/East Asian regions before and after the mutations of some haplogroups occured?

-What do you think about all these points?

7.
At the study “Haplotype Diversity in mtDNA and Y-Chromosome in Populations of Altai–Sayan Region” Haplogroup K-M9(xL, N, O, P) is found with 38.8%. In an earlier study Haplogroup T was found within Altaian Kazakhs(Y-Chromosome Variation in Altaian Kazakhs Reveals a Common Paternal Gene Pool for Kazakhs and the Influence of Mongolian Expansions) again after a situation of K-M9(N, O, P) i think. Do you think that the 38.8% of K-M9(xL, N, O, P) could belong to Haplogroup T? I asked professor Gubina about this, and she told me marker of T was not typed, and she has no plans for this in the future. Is there someone that could try to test these K-M9(xL, N, O, P) samples further to see if T is found among them?

8.
In an Y-STR only study of 2003 of professor Keyser-Tracqui about Xiongnu graves of 2000 years ago in Mongolia, there is a there is a grave with number 76. The haplotype of this sample has 5 Y-STR markers tested, in which these results were found: DYS392:13, DYS393:13, DYS19=14, YCAIIa-b:23-23.

The YCAIIa-b value of 23-23 is very unique, together with DYS14(14), DYS392(13), DYS393(13) it is found in only specificly haplogroups T-M70 and R1b. I have searched and analyzed all T-M70 and R1b haplotypes at Familytreedna.com, and found that 27/649 T-M70 haplotypes were a match(4,16%) and 21/5650 R1b haplotypes(0,37%) were a match. Looking at the YCAIIa-b values of the T-M70 and R1b haplotypes at Familytreedna.com, i saw that R1b haplotypes had mostly the following structure YCAIIa-b(19-...). T-M70 haplotypes had mostly the following structure YCAIIa-b(23-...). Also the fact that the haplotype prediction of grave number 84bis(and maybe also the haplotype of grave number 95) is specificly unique for haplogroup L-M20, do you think the outcome of grave number 76 has higher probabilities for T-M70 than R1b? Is there someone, maybe from the Ftdna T groups that can maybe test the Y-SNP haplogroup of this ancient grave number 76?

Also professor Keyser-Tracqui said that she was busy with a new project about Xiongnu graves in a cemetery with a new location in Mongolia. Does someone know what the status of this study is? Are there other new ancient dna projects going on about this subject?

9.
In the study of David K. Faux in 2007, “The Genetic Link of the Viking – Era Norse to Central Asia:An Assessment of the Y Chromosome DNA, Archaeological,Historical and Linguistic Evidence”, he said he found in Shetland project, haplogroups K2-M70, R1a and Q, and he also makes a connection between T and R1a and says these came together from Central Asia to Eurasian regions.

10.
At this page http://221.145.178.204/nrichdata/etc...e/KBJ16_01.pdf there is a wide ancient dna study performed, with 1462 ancient samples in 2007 by professor Kijeong Kim from South Korean Chung-Ang University. 8 years have been passed, and the results are still not published. In 2010 there was only the result of a single sample of these 1462 ancient samples published within a paper named “A western Eurasian male is found in 2000-year-old elite Xiongnu cemetery in Northeast Mongolia.”, which showed the first occurence of R1a among Xiongnu grave samples. There are thousands of other Scythian(11th BC - 2th centuries AD), Xiongnu(3th-3th centuries BC), Hun(3th-6th centuries) and Turk(6th-8th centuries) graves in Eurasian regions. What if they all got tested and showed interesting results that could change all the conclusions made by scientists about dna migration routes?
I have contacted Kijeong Kim about this situation, and he persists on not sharing the Y-SNP haplogroup results. As a reason he says they have not performed repeat analysis. But even if a part of the results could be wrong, for example maybe 0 - 5% of the 1462 ancient samples, isnt it really useful to have at least a good preview picture what can let other dna project investors to invest in reanalyses of parts of these samples? Why should such a massive pre study be kept private? Do you think there could be a political pressure to not publish these results? I dont understand what they could loose if they publish results of such an important study? Who does agree with me on this subject? Are there academics on this forum that could convince professor Kijeong Kim to publish these pre results?

what is this research tool in 23andme?

[ADW_1981]

The K-M9 result in Xiaohe seems more likely to be L-M20 of some sort if we evaluate modern distributions. (L-M20 correlates well with R1a in Central Asia, Iran, South Asia) LT probably has a central asian origin similar to R1 but both descendants have far weaker distribution when compared to the R1 super breeder. Arguably T-M70 is more closely linked distribution wise with R1b, even though it's pretty scarce just about everywhere in Europe, but tends to be higher the closer you get to the Middle-East. We can pretty much "vanquish" any Viking connection as even within Britain and Ireland there are only handfuls of haplotypes. When you get to Scandinavia, there are even fewer than the traditional "neolithic" groups. (i.e.: E-V13, G-P15..etc)

[isbara]

what is this research tool in 23andme?

http://mediacenter.23andme.com/blog/...ih_grant_2014/

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102231015#.

[isbara]

---
Molecular phylogenetic results demonstrated that ancient Korea, Shilla and ancient Mongolian, Scythian had very similar constitution of Y haplogroups whereas Korean and Mongolian of other historical periods showed no similarity each other. Except of similarity between Shilla and Scythian, Korean, Mongolian and Uzbek were quite different each other in the constitution of Y haplogroups irrespectively of historical period. mtDNA results also demonstrated that there was close relationship between Shilla and Scythian in constitution of mtDNA haplogroups, and the other group including Mongolian Bronze, modern, ancient Uzbek, Nukdo Korean, Baekjae and Chosun showed the similar pattern in constitution of mtDNA haplogroups. However, Xiongnu showed no similarity with all populations of different historical periods and regions.
---

If I understand this correctly, the Korean Shilla/Silla dynasty had Y-DNA and mtDNA similar to those of Mongolian Scythians. I can easily imagine that such a topic might be politically sensitive.

Yes, and the Y-dna and MT-dna of Xiongnu is completely different from all other populations. We already know there was found haplogroups C, Q, N, R in Xiongnu. What if in the future we find out that many more haplogroups are found within the Xiongnu graves? This would mean that the Xiongnu could have their roots in the Sumerians, whom are the root of human civilization.

[isbara]

The K-M9 result in Xiaohe seems more likely to be L-M20 of some sort if we evaluate modern distributions. (L-M20 correlates well with R1a in Central Asia, Iran, South Asia) LT probably has a central asian origin similar to R1 but both descendants have far weaker distribution when compared to the R1 super breeder. Arguably T-M70 is more closely linked distribution wise with R1b, even though it's pretty scarce just about everywhere in Europe, but tends to be higher the closer you get to the Middle-East. We can pretty much "vanquish" any Viking connection as even within Britain and Ireland there are only handfuls of haplotypes. When you get to Scandinavia, there are even fewer than the traditional "neolithic" groups. (i.e.: E-V13, G-P15..etc)

Until now, i find that the level of sample count is very low and unreliable. In time when more seriously projects are being performed, we will see different results.

For example, a couple of years ago who would have thought that Y-haplogroup G would be found in Kazakhs with such high frequency? For example there is found 87% of haplogroup G in Bíró et. al. 2009 and in some other studies haplogroup C is found with 40-60%. In the newest study "Y-chromosome descent clusters and male differential reproductive success: young lineage expansions dominate Asian pastoral nomadic populations" there was found 26% of G in Karakalpaks. There are other studies that show similar results. And about haplogroup T, there are tons of studies with high frequncy K* that were not taken serious enough to test more markers. I keep reading articles and posts about T being found with high frequencies in the Middle-East, what do we mean by high actually? T results are showed in really few studies, and does not go higher than 0-15%. For example i find the conclusions made in the following study "Increased Resolution of Y Chromosome Haplogroup T Defines Relationships among Populations of the Near East, Europe, and Africa" very funny and not deserved to be called academic. The highest frequency in table 1 is only 12,5%, based upon this they declare the origin of T Jewish. This is not scientific, because 12,5% of haplogroup T is also found in the Xibe population of Xinjiang. Also the Phoenician connection of Genographics, on which facts do you base this on? This is not scientific, and these are the methods of non scientific companies that earn money out of these lies. For example, how can someone make a Phoenician connection with Thomas jefferson(ancient dna, born 1743)?

And also, i really doubt the reliability and seriousness of the majority of dna studies. Tell me something, how many academic Y-dna studies are there, whom have researched carefully and very strict the historical documents of the participants of their projects? What if in the majority of the dna studies, the samples that are collected belong to people from one village, or yet even belong to people from the same villages that belong to only a couple of families that are relatives to each other in the close history? Is this enough to make a valid generalization of the haplogroups found in specific countries? The solution is to conduct Y-DNA studies in which the paternal historical documents of each participant is recorded very carefully, so that the studies may be counted as scientific to assign general haplogroups to specific groups of populations.

Ancient dna projects are the most important piece of the puzzle that needs to solved right now. Think of it like this, what if in between 1200 and 1300 AD, specific groups of people migrated completely from Mongolia to Iran? What if ancient dna will proof this? And for example did you know that the population number in modern Mongolia is less than 3 million. Do you think that it is scientific and also true to assign a haplogroup to the ancient Mongol tribes based on the Y-DNA tests done on nowadays Mongolian population with less than 3 million inhabitants? Did you know that in the begin of 1300's there was a massive migration from Mongolia to China, Afghanistan, Iran and Türkiye. Do you know of the existance of the Ilkhanid Mongol state in Iran and Türkiye?

Another mistake i saw recently in an academic paper("Title：Present Y chromosomes support the Persian ancestry of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar and Eminent Navigator Zheng He"), in which the ancient dna of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar was found to belong to haplogroup L-M20. In the paper it is written that he is of Khwarezmian tribe, and they conclude he is of Persian origin(with the doubts they write). This is totally not scientific and not true. Every historian that is associated with medieval history knows that the dynasty of Khwarazm Shahs and their state is of Turkish origin(Mamlukids, Kipchaks, etc...), and we also know that the borders of Khwarezmia lies within Central Asia, the land of the Turks(6th-8th centuries). We also know that in the Gokcumen 2008 study, there was found 57% of L-M20 in Afshar Turks in Türkiye. But still, Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar is concidered to be of Persian origin, is this scientific? No. What if an important group of ancient Turks with L-M20 migrated between 1200 and 1500 AD from Mongolia, China and Central Asia to Iran and Türkiye countries? Do the academicians bother to think about this?

Also, the same situation with haplogroup T, the haplotypes of T and R1a-R1b really look similar. If you look at the Y-STR markers one by one, you will see what i mean, so what does this point out? Could it be possible that T is defined not correctly in the Y-tree? Can you guys also answer the questions i asked in the first post? We know of the sudden new discoveries of markers like M184 that changed the position of older K2-M70 fundamentally. What if the reason of the rare low frequencies of T in whole world is because there are still undiscovered SNP's that cause for the wrong classification of it in the Y-Tree?

[vettor]

The K-M9 result in Xiaohe seems more likely to be L-M20 of some sort if we evaluate modern distributions. (L-M20 correlates well with R1a in Central Asia, Iran, South Asia) LT probably has a central asian origin similar to R1 but both descendants have far weaker distribution when compared to the R1 super breeder. Arguably T-M70 is more closely linked distribution wise with R1b, even though it's pretty scarce just about everywhere in Europe, but tends to be higher the closer you get to the Middle-East. We can pretty much "vanquish" any Viking connection as even within Britain and Ireland there are only handfuls of haplotypes. When you get to Scandinavia, there are even fewer than the traditional "neolithic" groups. (i.e.: E-V13, G-P15..etc)

curious, which K-M9 in Xiaohe

the Tarim basin lone K9 with the other 11 x R1a1 was found to be T1a2