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Thread: Reconstruction and possibly a genetic analysis in the future of 4,000YBP Pole

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    Coming soon?: DNA analysis of Bronze age Pole

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/01...om-poland.html

    This is perfect timing for the Reich-Laz-Patterson paper which should be online soon.

    Here's the original article(link). It is written in Polish and so I translated to English, using Google translate.

    If I'm interpreting the translation correctly, he was from Hrubieszow, Poland, which is close to Poland's border with Ukraine.

    Based on the wording of the article, it seems we'll learn about several bronze age Poles genetic markers.

    Based on leaks given by Reich-Laz-Patterson, a good guess would be that he was genetically somewhere around Yamna and modern Northeast Europeans. So, in ANE K8 he would probably score somewhere around 35-50% WHG, 30-40% Near eastern, and 17-25% ANE.

    Burial 4,000 years before it was discovered in Rogalin for Hrubieszow. The best preserved is the skeleton of a man who at the time of his death he was 45 years. Archaeologists called it a warrior. Why?

    - In the grave we found, inter alia, several flint arrowheads to a shot, flint knife or spear, sickle with flint and bone buckle - lists Bartecki Bartholomew, director of the Museum.

    ks. AGH University of Science Hrubieszow. Skull warrior was in such good condition that the museum was tempted by an experiment - a reconstruction of his face. Tasks undertaken by the research team of Dr. Dorothy Lorkiewicz-Muszyńska of the Department of Forensic Medicine, University of Medical Sciences. Every day with their ability to use the police, for example, when you need to identify a murder victim. The first step was to make a 3D scan of the skull.


    - At the base using a special computer program was applied to the muscle tissue - explains the director Bartecki. - Method shows more than 90 percent. compliance with the real appearance of a man - says.


    Proved invaluable assistance skeleton results Rogalin. Also genetic. Thanks to them, we know that the warrior had a dark complexion, dark hair and eyes.


    - Generally enjoyed good health. He had all his teeth, do not we have also discovered no significant bone degeneration - says the head of the museum in Hrubieszow.


    But it turned out that the man who lived in the Lublin region 4000 years ago, he suffered from bone cancer. - The tumor was not malignant, so you may not feel pain leg - Bartholomew Bartecki wonders. Through genetic testing, we also know that some people in this cemetery were related. For example, in one place were buried next to each other brothers or cousins. The youngest children at the time of death was between 7 and 10 years.


    In April, the Museum. ks. AGH University of Science Hrubieszow opening of the exhibition will be devoted to the excavations of Rogalin. Let's see, inter alia, on the skeleton warrior, and next records subsequent stages of reconstruction of his face. Boards will be shown next to a multimedia presentation, showing step by step how to print skull was created in 3D.


    - For now, do not betray everything. The full effect of the reconstruction will present only at our exhibition - says director Bartecki.


    On this basis will be drawn cast of the head of a warrior. Dummy get "the hand" a copy of his tools.


    Research cemetery in Rogalin not yet been completed. It may be that the discovery of 12 burials is just the beginning.
    Last edited by Krefter; 01-22-2015 at 02:52 AM.

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    From the region of modern Poland 4000 old warrior with dark skin, hair and eyes.
    All indications of a non EEF, non WHG, but ANE shifted sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    From the region of modern Poland 4000 old warrior with dark skin, hair and eyes.
    All indications of a non EEF, non WHG, but ANE shifted sample.
    Pigmentation isn't a very useful piece of evidence when trying to figure out the genetic makeup of ancient Europeans, because it is prone to change. This Polish warrior was contemporary to Catacomb, and lived just west of them and Catacomb had the same dark pigmentation. I think his pigmentation has more to do with the era he was from not his genetics.

    Although I do agree that brown eyes in a European is an indication of ANE or near eastern ancestry. Yamna was mostly ANE+Near eastern which is probably why they were more brown eyed than pre-IE west Europeans who had as much near eastern, but no ANE, and close to 50% WHG.

    Genetically speaking he was probably somewhere in-between modern northeast Europeans and theoretical Yamna, and my guess would be 20% or more ANE.
    Last edited by Krefter; 01-22-2015 at 04:14 AM.

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    Let me paste my post from elsewhere

    I personally know a director of a museum that will make an exhibition connected with this finding, Mr. Bartłomiej Bartecki. He said that Bronze Age warrior was found in context of post-Corded Ware local Strzyżów culture. Also he revealed to me, that mtDNA was obtained from this warrior and several other remains - U5b1, H1b, H2a, H1b, H1a, H2a, H6.(I don't know which mtDNA this warrior possessed)
    However, site also shown several Globular Amphorae influences. So, many scenarios are possible.
    Last edited by Artmar; 01-23-2015 at 09:17 AM.

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    Near-Eastern, and even EEF is a bit of a black box right now. We really need an ancient Mesopotamian farmer. There is a degree of diverse ancestry bottled up in that Near_eastern component.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    Pigmentation isn't a very useful piece of evidence when trying to figure out the genetic makeup of ancient Europeans, because it is prone to change. This Polish warrior was contemporary to Catacomb, and lived just west of them and Catacomb had the same dark pigmentation. I think his pigmentation has more to do with the era he was from not his genetics.
    Are you suggesting that Bronze Age Europeans in general were dark pigmented even if they became light pigmented later? If so, when. I thought that the Near Eastern farmers were also originally dark pigmented but became light skinned quickly once they reached Europe. So I would've thought that by the Bronze Age, Europeans were light skinned. But what exactly is this dark pigment colour? Like today's Arabs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hando View Post
    Are you suggesting that Bronze Age Europeans in general were dark pigmented even if they became light pigmented later? If so, when. I thought that the Near Eastern farmers were also originally dark pigmented but became light skinned quickly once they reached Europe. So I would've thought that by the Bronze Age, Europeans were light skinned. But what exactly is this dark pigment colour? Like today's Arabs?
    We don't have any pigmentation results from the ancient Near east. Both Neolithic and bronze age Euros show the same skin color-related alleles. Middle easterns today have more of the light skin alleles than Neolithic and bronze age Euros did, but less than modern Euros.

    It is very iffy, whether we can know what type of skin color any of these ancient samples had. But it can't be random that mutations associated with light skin which are pretty much 100% in Europe today, were very unpopular in bronze age and Neolithic Europe. We can generally say both were very dark haired and dark complected in north European standards.

    3 populations from eastern-central Europe mixed about 5,000-4,000 years to basically create modern north and east Europeans. 1. Yamna-types from Russia and Ukraine. 2.Gok2 types from central Europe. 3.The last pure(ish) hunter gatherers of Europe who were 75-85% WHG and 15-25% ANE.

    Yamna was 90% brown eyed(large sample set), vast vast majority dark haired, and probably dark skinned in north European terms.

    Gok2-types were over 60% brown eyed and dark haired with some confirmed blonde hair, and probably as light skinned as central-north Euros today.

    The hunter gatherers were something like 80% blue eyed or more(a brown eyed one hasn't been found yet), vast vast majority dark haired, and defiantly dark skinned.

    So, yes European's ancestors as recent as 5,000-4,000YBP, were significantly darker than their modern descendants. Current pigmentation is obviously the result of selection/evolution not genetics. People with yellow hair, blue eyes, and light skin had more descendants in bronze age Europe. Probably not for an obvious reason(s), and I doubt when this evolution was happening anyone noticed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    We don't have any pigmentation results from the ancient Near east. Both Neolithic and bronze age Euros show the same skin color-related alleles. Middle easterns today have more of the light skin alleles than Neolithic and bronze age Euros did, but less than modern Euros.

    It is very iffy, whether we can know what type of skin color any of these ancient samples had. But it can't be random that mutations associated with light skin which are pretty much 100% in Europe today, were very unpopular in bronze age and Neolithic Europe. We can generally say both were very dark haired and dark complected in north European standards.

    3 populations from eastern-central Europe mixed about 5,000-4,000 years to basically create modern north and east Europeans. 1. Yamna-types from Russia and Ukraine. 2.Gok2 types from central Europe. 3.The last pure(ish) hunter gatherers of Europe who were 75-85% WHG and 15-25% ANE.

    Yamna was 90% brown eyed(large sample set), vast vast majority dark haired, and probably dark skinned in north European terms.

    Gok2-types were over 60% brown eyed and dark haired with some confirmed blonde hair, and probably as light skinned as central-north Euros today.

    The hunter gatherers were something like 80% blue eyed or more(a brown eyed one hasn't been found yet), vast vast majority dark haired, and defiantly dark skinned.

    So, yes European's ancestors as recent as 5,000-4,000YBP, were significantly darker than their modern descendants. Current pigmentation is obviously the result of selection/evolution not genetics. People with yellow hair, blue eyes, and light skin had more descendants in bronze age Europe. Probably not for an obvious reason(s), and I doubt when this evolution was happening anyone noticed.
    In the Mesolithc and later c. 8500-4000BC large areas of former open land in temperate Europe became forest and in northern Europe this remained the case far longer - for up to 5000 years. Perhaas that my have strongly selected for fair skin and the hunters who had had dark skin when living in bright cold glare filled conditions might have become lighter when living in extremely gloomy endless forest. On the other hand it has also been argued that their diet may have meant this lack of sunlight was not a problem. I am not sure, maybe a bit of both is true. The thing about the Mesolithic is the hunting options changed radically too with the coming of a forested world - in some ways trickier but more varied. Who knows the impact this had. Winter was a tough time for Mesolithic hunters from what have read. I dont think that without a lot of ancient samples across time and geography we can be sure about how hunters genetics changed over time in Europe. That may never be solved as hunter-gather burials are very rare across most of Europe.
    Last edited by alan; 01-24-2015 at 10:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artmar View Post
    Let me paste my post from elsewhere
    Can you find out what the Y-DNA haplogroup was?

    Analiza markerów STR usytuowanych na chromosomie Y, które przekazywane są z ojca na syna, wykazały identyczny haplotyp u obu mężczyzn, co sugeruje, że mogli mieć tego samego przodka w linii męskiej i tym samym mogli być braćmi lub kuzynami.
    http://archeowiesci.pl/2015/01/24/ot...ka-z-rogalina/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    Current pigmentation is obviously the result of selection/evolution not genetics.
    That statement is self-contradictory, unless you believe in the old Lamarck hypothesis. Our modern understanding of selection/evolution is based entirely on genetics.

    With respect to skin/eye/hair pigmentation in Europe, I see three alternatives, which are not mutually exclusive:
    - Migration of populations
    - Natural selection
    - Social selection (marital and economic discrimination, war and genocide, etc.)

    Natural selection is of course the politically correct answer, but also the weakest. To explain such a rapid and drastic change in allele proportions, one must postulate an enormous selection factor without human precedent and with almost no supporting evidence at all.

    In contrast, the other two alternatives have ample precedent in modern times. Does anyone doubt that in the last 500 years, average skin pigmentation in Western Europe's former colonies has changed--indeed quite rapidly and drastically in countries like the United States and Australia?
    Last edited by lgmayka; 01-24-2015 at 12:23 PM.

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